Religion in hospitals - docs want to chat about god

[LovelyTinOfSpam]

blimey

This has really surprised me and is not something I would be at all happy about. I don't want the people who are caring for me when I am ill wittering on about god and my spiritual wellbeing. I am an athiest. I do not want my midwife asking if she can pray for me for example

My hospital has a chaplain and a prayer room - you can ask for people of whatever religion to come and see to you if you want to talk spiritual stuff. Why on earth would you want your nurse or doctor chatting on uninvited?

I also notice they talk about Christianity - but many staff in hospitals are muslim, jewish, buddhist, well all creeds and faiths are covered. My mum even worked in theatre with a jehovahs witness!

So naturally if the christians can spread the word on the words all the other religions could too...

This sounds like a dreadful idea - there is already provision for those who want it, why give free rein to all and sundry to bring it up all the time? A lot of religions have a tihng which says their followers should spread the word or convert others - the more fervent people wouldn't be able to help themselves would they? And they have the best audience in the world - a captive audience who may be facing their own mortality.

Any thoughts? Anyone think this is a good idea?

'It started off by implying that doctors who have a faith will want to shove their faith down the throats of those who don't want it and i just wanted to point out that this is not the case for most people.'

But when a physician or healthcare worker denies a patient care by refusing to perform a certain duty because of their religion, they are shoving their faith down someone's throat.

But our service doesn't exclude anyone at all, so I really don't see what the problem is. They allow a practising catholic doctor to live by his beliefs, by not making him deal with family planning issues. They employ a different doctor who can take up that role for him.

They don't exclude people who aren't christian, so they are providing healthcare for everyone. Therefore the argument doesn't stand.

I only mentioned that they state they are a christian practise because they feel it's important for people to know that. The fact that you don't believe in God may affect your choice of surgery, but would never affect their service.

Sorry if I implied you had to be christian to be treated there.

Also, I just meant in terms of christian faith, the catholic situation. I know that muslims have major issues with things like the MAP.

Look, this is the fucking buckethead christians at it once again. They are demanding the right to make pests of themselves ie the right to voluntarily crap-peddle to patients despite the patients' wishes, opinions and personal beliefs. It is not appropriate for medical professionals to peddle superstitious crap to patients - patients who want superstitious stuff are at liberty to call in their own crap-peddlers or indeed make use of the NHS ones.
THe 'victimized-for-being-christians-' bucketheads always turn out to have overstepped the mark, demanded special privileges or said something unacceptable to someone else. Plenty of peope manage to be christians without actually being arseholes about it, same as other people don't autiomatically bring their football tribalism or political affiliations into the workplace.

If any doctor I went to see gave me a promise to pray for me with the prescription, I'd look at him/her as if they were mad, and then report them for professional misconduct.

I knew as soon as i wrote that, someone would come back with that comment, expat. Yes, i didn't articulate it well enough and of course, refusing care does impose your religion on others - which I have said is wrong. But....the OP was about a motion (a very minor one that hasn't been passed) that was saying that doctors wanted to be able to talk about spiritual matters. Presumably, this motion is needed becuase of the recent reported suspensions. There was a lot of religion bashing and bashing of doctors with religion at the start of this thread and I just wanted to say that most healthcare professionals are not like that and actually do respect their patient's wishes. Those that don't, should clearly be dealt with professionally. I am now aware, though, that if a patient asks me about my faith and talks to me about theirs, due to the recent press coverage, I am much more wary to talk about it. I don't actually think doctors want to be chaplains, and if this motion seems to suggest that, it is wrong. I personally just read it as a way of protecting those amongst us who may enter into a discussion with the patient's consent. Maybe i am being too idealistic.

'But our service doesn't exclude anyone at all, so I really don't see what the problem is. They allow a practising catholic doctor to live by his beliefs, by not making him deal with family planning issues. They employ a different doctor who can take up that role for him.

They don't exclude people who aren't christian, so they are providing healthcare for everyone. Therefore the argument doesn't stand.'

But you're basing your argument on teh belief that, everywhere you go, there are plenty of surgeries around if you don't like a Christian (or other one where faith and articles of faith are obvious), or that every surgery has plenty of doctors on hand if one refuses to perform certian functions or provide certain forms of care because of his/her religious beliefs.

This is not uniform in every place. Many areas have only one choice for surgery available. In Scotland, for example, you have to go to the surgery based on your address.

In rural areas, options are limited.

So by allowing NHS healthcare providers to opt out of certain functions due to their religious beliefs, this is a denial of care and completely unacceptable as the NHS is not a private insurance provider.

BTW I do pray for some of those I have treated, just as I do whenever I see an ambulance with blue lights etc....but I don't tell them that I am going to. Is that enough to be reported for misconduct or would you only object if I told you that was what I was doing? Bit off the subject, but just wondered....

After the birth of ds2, while I was recovering from emergency cs, and very ill. There was a nurse that would constantly harp on about christianity to me. It was obvious that I am in fact a muslim, but she continuously sang hymns very loudly outside the curtain, which I have started to keep shut so that she would leave me alone.
No medical staff should not allow their religious beliefs to over-ride the care of patients. I once had to endure a male muslim nurse who was disgusted that I showed him my arm for a blood-test, fgs. As for the muslim pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription for the morning after pill, that is obsurd, all medication is allowed in islam, even the morning after pill.
However, these instances are rare, and have never had too much of a problem.

In Scotland you don't expat - except in a rural area where you don't have any choice, and even then, a lot of people are registered where they work, rather than where they live.

My dh is a doctor and a Christian, and many of his patients know that, especially as he has been working part time while he did a degree in Theology! He would never ever bring it up, but if a patient does, then he is happy to talk to them about it, and has prayed with patients when they have asked him to do so. We used to live in a fairly churchgoing part of the country, where a lot of people, especially the elderly, really appreciated that.

He doesn't, as is his right under the abortion act, refer for terminations. There is another doctor in the practice who does. I think to suggest that he should be prevented from doing all the other amazing stuff he does as a GP just because of this is wrong.

Deeja - that is appaulling and that nurse should have been reported - totally out of order and disrespectful to you.

I'm not talking about a wider provision issue. I'm talking about my own surgery and how it works. And I still don't see a problem with it.

They don't ram religion down your throat and they don't judge you on your beliefs. They do, however, state that they are a christian practise, because that's the main reason why the doc went into practise in the first place.

If this was a rural area you undoubtedly wouldn't be able to accommodate our catholic GPs wants, but because we have our surgery run as it is, we can. And we do have alternatives.

I'm not suggesting this is the model for all other GP practises. I'm not suggesting this would work everywhere. I'm not even commenting on the larger issues of the NHS. I'm just pointing out that our surgery is christian and I, as a non-believer, have found it to be flawless.

I don't have a problem with physicians having religions, except where it means a patient, because of transport or location issues, can't get the care they need because of a healthcare worker's beliefs.

Actually, couldn't care less what a person does in his/her non-professional lif as it's no one's business but his/her own, be it their religion or other practices.

Solid, we all know how you feel about organised religion, but c'mon, don't you think 'bucketheads' is a over-the-score?

Personally, abortions are not for me, I won't even use the copper coil for similar reasons, but they are legal for others, I guess, so as long as there is someone else there to provide those if one person can't.

Trouble is, in some areas, there probably isn't.

I wouldn't have a problem with a practice like yours, squilly, but the principle of the matter is that others very well might, and it's a government-funded healthcare programme.

'I'm just pointing out that our surgery is christian and I, as a non-believer, have found it to be flawless.'

Yes, but surely you can see that this discussion is pertaining to the NHS at large.

We love our GPs ( weegie) and don't have a problem with organised religion ourselves but I can see where others might, if say, there was only a practice such as yours in the area and they were Muslim or Jewish or non-Christian.

Maybe not, but maybe so.

For such reasons, my feeling is that they should keep that side of their lives to themselves unless a patient specifically asks.

I realise this is the bigger picture Expat and I don't disagree with anything you've said, but as a snapshot I think our GPs show that religion can be involved in delivery of healthcare without it being shoved down your throat every day or creating difficulties.

I do see, however, that this view could be changed if I was dealing with a sick relative and didn't really want any extra hassle to deal with. I think I'd be excused in such circumstances, however, for telling any such medical pratctioner to f**k right of

At least, I'd hope so

The GP thing is slightly different isn't it, as they are self employed and can more or less set their own rules within a framework - rather than having to adhere to rules set by someone else ie the hospital trust. GPs are allowed to put people off their lists for example.

I find weegie's comment about her DH interesting. When the doctor smugly told me that she would not prescribe the pill as it went against her beliefs I had a very strong feeling that she was disapporoving of my lifestyle - of which she knew nothing. That is not providing the service for the patient, that is denying a service based on a medically irrelevant belief structure.

If you are a young woman and you go to your GP pregnant I do not see how it is helpful in facilitating her decision to say that you are against abortion on principle. As that is telling her that abortion is wrong in your eyes. So not presenting it as a reasonable choice.

Ditto the language in the article about doctors being able to use the term "going against their ethics" to carry out certain procedures etc. To the patient that is telling them that by definition the service they want to access is unethical. However it is not unethical to use contraception etc so how can it be right to tell people that that is so?

As for the original article - it wasn't about people engaging with people about religious things if they asked. It was about looking to provide spiritual support if they hadn't asked. Totally different kettle of fish.

And BTW people can pray for me all they fancy, I just don't want to know about it. I would find it unnerving and frankly it would make me question the level of care I was receiving.

Okay, I take your meaning, squilly. And I agree. I wouldn't have a problem with a practice like yours at all, having been brought up a Roman Catholic and all my family still being practicing Catholics.

I also grew up in a conservative state in the US where there are many Protestant denominations of Christianity so Christianity is more familiar to me than other religions just by virtue of exposure.

But I guess if I were say, a Muslim, it might make me uncomfortable.

I would not feel comfortable attending a christain surgery and would not do so. Full stop.

So if that's all there was, I would not be able to access the GP service.

Solid - totally agree with you. Health care is one area where faith simply should not be an issue unless the patient specifically WANTS it to be.

Which then begs the question... if I am an atheist nurse and some religious nut keeps bugging me to pray for him/her, do I have the right to say "I am an atheist and I do not believe in the power of prayer?"

if it were me I would say "you will be in my thoughts" and leave it at that.

And find the chaplain or someone more suitable to talk to them about their beliefs.

It's funny, I'm an atheist but a healthcare person kindly saying "I'll keep you in my prayers" wouldn't bother me at all - I'd take it as it was meant - I don't mind it any more than someone saying "bless you".

What amazes me is that there is a hoo-haa about this, and authorities banning staff from mentioning it, and yet in state schools it's the law that they must have an act of worship and it must be predominantly christian - and that's for young impressionable minds in a context where they are supposed to be being taught facts. That riles me. In a hospital, with a member of staff talking about their own religious feelings and thoughts, as an adult, you can just think ho hum, whatever, that doesn't affect me. If you really wanted you could say "thanks but no thanks, prayer has actually been scientifically proven to be completely ineffective" but I actually wouldn't be so rude.

It would be different if NHS staff were saying things like "well you'll be off to hell since you're a heathen, repent the now", that I would object to.

It's not only adults who have to spend time in hospital muffle.

What if the person in question was a pagan and said "I'll slaughter a chicken for you"? Would you brush that off too?

And I believe there is plenty of hoo-ha about daily acts of worship in state schools and faith schools, at least on these boards.

But, looking at the list of BMA motions, it seems to me that what is being asked is that just having a conversation with a patient about faith (or praying for them, which might, in some circumstances, be appropriate, I think) should not lead to disciplinary action or suspension.

What if you had a patient, without family, say, who had just been told they have a terminal illness - and the patient raises this sort of issue, and wants to talk about how they feel?

What if the patient is very religious and asks "What do you think doctor?" or says "Think of me" or even "Say one for me" to a staff member wearing a crucifix?

Totally agree about the schools. I'm in France where we have official separation of church and state.

I think if the doctor and patient both agree beforehand, then they should be allowed to have a chat about it without disciplinary action.

I personally wouldn't entirely trust a doctor who was superstitious or believed in mythical beings any more than I'd trust a doctor who believed in homeopathy or unicorns.

Ok I know I'm being deliberately provocative and trollish, but I would like to see something akin to modern anti-smoking laws: what you do in your own home, in your own head, in your own church is fine. But it stops there. So no to faith in public hospitals, state schools, government departments and public transport.

FFS I had the JW's round the other day (hanging around in the porch in front of my apartment, it was raining) who tried to give a pamphlet to my 5 year old. "Oh he'll like it, it's full of cartoons". In a sane society, that would be a criminal offence.