Light sensors cause religious row

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Story here.

Maybe they should just move?

But hellobeastie is entirely right. Totally possible to be an atheist and to have had a faith once. I did. I grew out of it.

hmm good point mp, like "paah its just superstition"

but as a non believer it looks like a superstition,i.e. a belief not based on fact. Can't it be both?

I don't understand.

The couple aren't turning the lights on themselves, so why is this in breach of the Sabbath rules?

ilove they are putting on the light by their very motion.

Lil: Yes, sentences that don't just insult and name-call - try again.

"Many other humans, as an irresistable urge, which is part of their nature, have a desire to live in communion with a divine source that that feel runs through the world and their lives. This is not quite the same as not walking under a ladder."

What part of this sentence is 'a belief not based on fact'? Religious practices are generally based on feelings and convictions about the universe having a spiritual dimension - those feelings and convictions are certainly genuine. Whether people are "wrong" in their convictions that the universe has a spiritual dimension doesn't really matter to people who feel that way, to be honest. However, to dismiss the very foundations of their belief in life, the universe and everything as 'superstition' is somewhat insulting, when those feelings are genuine. Do you see the difference?

Why would it be obvious LenninGrad? I had a neighbour who asked me not to hang my washing out because it spoiled her view - an example of people asking for random things because it suits them.

A FFS is to me a turn of phrase, a moment of exasperation which indeed may be dismissive or unthinking - possibly meant to be so. But can we expect people to always be inclusive or understanding? To always provide a considered response - particulary when the subject up for debate is to them pointless and irrelevant. But it would not necessarily have any reflection on their wider views or opinions.

Perhaps it depends how robust your language is normally - FFS can be quite tame!

Now going to put DC to bed so not ignoring any responses - on the odd chance there are.

Oh, I see.

I would hope that they take advice from the religious court, but it's an interesting religious point. Isn't there precedent that before a court grant a divorce, that a Jewish couple have the opportunity to get it recognized by the Jewish court (a get?). Hope it can be reconciled.

ilovemydogandmrobama

That would be an ecumenical matter!

Seriously though, it is considered a debatable point, hence the disagreement between various strands of the faith on it.

Incidentally, I am liking the use of 'FFS' as a verb; "there was no need to FFS it". This could have legs.

Oops, X-post

Everyone knows the word (superstition) has acquired a pejorative meaning.

People can say "I'm superstitious. Are you?" without anyone being insulted.

Seriously dude, who is having these conversations? Apart from the people who "want to be lumped in with people who have 'silly' beliefs in things like ghosts and fairies and knocking on wood for luck." Can we have some actual names, examples, perhaps a celebrity 'superstitious figure' who is admired and respected?

n.b. not Russell Grant

I respond to this as an orthodox jew. On the sabbath which is from sundown friday to sundown saturday we are not allowed to do any work. Included in that definition is creativity. Work /creativity - to reduce the definitions to their crudest forms and without explaining the reasons for each prohibition - include switching on electrical circuits/cooking/driving a car/turning on television/using the telephone and of course work itself . On the sabbath we experience a deep type of rest literally free from outside demands/routines.

WE live in a home where the light switches are operated by a timeswitch - they are on friday night and go off at midnight and come on again at nightfall saturday. We warm food with a hot plate. When walking down teh street at night we will cross the road rather than walk past a house where the automatic sensor is triggered by our presence. This is because if the sensor is triggered we have voilated this prohibition.

When staying in hotels we cannot make use of the lifts or electronic key system on the sabbath . Many hotels will supply manual keys for this purpose particularly in areas serving a jewish clientele.

Therefore the concern this couple have with the system is well founded as they will break the sabbath each time they operate the sensor system in their flat.

I think they have done the right thing in offering to pay for an override and wonder why the managment company are refusing as presumably an override would not afect the other residents?

Furthermore they would presumably not have purchased the flat with the sensor system in place knowing they would be unable to, in effect, use the flat on the sabbath . Therefore their "rights" are being affected as they are prevented from making use of somehting that belongs to them through no fault or action of their own.

I hope this explains some of hte background to this case and am happy to answer further questions.

I have however been saddened by some of the comments here directed at this couple such as "FFS" and "selfish" etc. Mumsnet has alwyas been a place of tolerance and respectful debate and especially in areas of religious discussion where I have watched and taken part in debate over everything from Jehovas Witnesses to Catholocism to Buddhism to Wicca. Each are treated with respect and considered anaology. The same should be afforded to Judaism without any attempt to belittle it or "ffs" its values and standards.

Superstitious celebrities.

Well I'm not sure if you are kidding or not MP. Lots of people on this planet. It's not a big deal to be superstitious here.

stewigriffinsmum - not an insult. Just stating that it has been discredited because it has. Even Dawkins' brand of atheism, which is really just stating no more than any other atheist would and saying it louder and more often. It's not "fundamentalist" in a religious sense, because if evidence to the contrary came along he would examine it.

I'm sure lots of people are superstitious.

Enjoyable though it is to think about, I fail to see the link between Tiger Woods wearing his lucky red underpants and people feeling that there is a spiritual undercurrent to life, the connection with which helps them to grow into better and more thoughtful humans.

Can you explain how these things are the same?

Olympe, I don't know how to correct your belief in my insincerity really.
If I was discussing religion with someone in RL(where things tend to be tamer than on here), I would not have used the word superstition in a confrontational context. I may have said 'to me, it seems like superstition, what gives it more depth than that for you?'. Are you saying that would be derogatory? And that I am disingenuous for thinking it would be ok to ask that question?

I do have to add though, I don't like the baiting and nasty language that is resorted to in these discussions. It does often happen on both sides though(and people are more free with their FFSs on here), and I think that is due mostly to how frustrated each side gets at not being able to discuss it without being seen as 'bigots' or 'paranoid'. It is hard to know what language to use sometimes, as often different viewpoints will genuinely not realise offence is being caused(having often not been to the other side of the fence), especially when both sides could be looking to be offended iyswim.

MP
"Many other humans, as an irresistable urge, which is part of their nature, have a desire to live in communion with a divine source that that feel runs through the world and their lives. This is not quite the same as not walking under a ladder."

I completely respect that desire, I can understand it must be fulfilling at times, but it doesn't mean it is fact does it? And I can see it is not the same as not walking under a ladder, but on a very basic level when you look at the reason someone avoids the number 13 for example, there are similarities. They are both doing things which put unnecessary restrictions on your life(and some expect those around them to do the same) for a feeling which has no current basis in fact to back it up.

"What part of this sentence is 'a belief not based on fact'? Religious practices are generally based on feelings and convictions about the universe having a spiritual dimension - those feelings and convictions are certainly genuine"

I have to ask you, what part of that sentence is a belief based on fact? As you go on to say, it is based on 'feelings and convictions', and yes of course these have a huge amount of worth, but they are not fact. That is what people who do not have the same irresistible urge have trouble understanding when that urge sometimes seems to control and narrow lives and minds.

yes Lisalisa, very considered and interesting

Ok, I've only read the first half of this but

1. Having lived in a block with communal hallways, I would be p*ssed off at having the lights on 24 hours as they shone right into the flat, making it difficult to sleep.

2. What did the couple do before the sensors? Given that they couldn't turn the lights on, they must have been able to negotiate the hall and stairs in the dark.

3. "carry out your religion in the privacy of your own home environment?" This isn't the privacy of their home environment, it's the communal hallways and thus not private.

4. They don't even live there! That gives the other residents the edge over them TBH.

5. "If their claim is successful, the owners of the 35 flats in the seafront building will be liable to pay the couple?s costs as well as any damages." That will mean they won't be able to have full use of their flat because everyone else will hate them.

6. I guess what they need is a manual override which they press inside their flat to prevent the lights going on when they walk past and one by the front door for when they return. Thus the lights would not be on 24 hours and they would not be switching them on.

TBH, I think this shows how religions following ancient/outdated rules don't work in modern society without those rules being reviewed in light of changes since they were made. Clearly motion sensors and electricity didn't exist when the rules were made so applying them in this kind if situation doesn't work.