Marnie Pearce - latest from Amnesty

[BizzieLizzie1]

www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=18171

I do think this woman has paid an extremely high price for this (in our eyes) very minor transgression and don't really understand the "When in Rome... " sniffiness from some posters. From what I understand - and I have not visited any part of the UAE - Western expats are allowed to live their lives pretty much unfettered by local culture and tradition. If the man she was apparently having a coffee with was another expat, I am sure that it was a situation that every other Western woman in Dubai has been in without giving it a second thought.

I feel extremely sorry for her and agree with numal that there should have been a lot more support for and awareness of her case in UK.

I don't buy all this crap about her towing the line according to the law over there - would you trot out the same stuff if she had been stoned to death if she'd been raped??

I think there has been lukewarm support because she doesn't come across as a likeable person, unfortunately.

If it wasn't for MN I would never have heard about any of this, could just be that I walk around oblivious but I haven't read/heard about this anywhere else.

I'm not saying that Marnie deserves to loose her boys for what she she did/didn't do, of course she doesn't, but surely she was aware of the risks?

lala - yes they do, but Marnie is in the different situation that although she is a western expat she is married to a muslim man who obviously expected his wife to act in the appropraite way according to the Islamic code. Now we don't know whether he had any expectations of how she was to behave before they married and told her so of whether they had a western style marriage when not in UAE and then he had a totally different view point when in a Muslim country but forgot to tell her we don't know, but in his eyes he lost face and she needed to be punished.

It sounded extremely opportunistic discovery of the Islamic code to me - I read that he was already living with another woman himself . I also understand he is Egyptian and therefore from a much less oppressive culture than Dubai.

Yes I guess it does.

And then again, perhaps he was looking for an excuse to divorce her and get custody but Egypt was too lenient and he took advantage of the harsher regime in UAE.

Quote "I think there has been lukewarm support because she doesn't come across as a likeable person, unfortunately." Pottycock

That could be a part of it, along with that video of when she handed the children over and wound them up into hysterics for the video, I guess to get British public support. It was disturbing to watch.

Good grief, so we shouldn't worry about injustice, the oppression of women and the suffering of children because it's the UAE and you live there, tough shit?

I'm glad I'm a member of Amnesty and that they work for the release of prisoners held by oppressive regimes right across the world - including people unjustly detained and mistreated by Western govts. like those in Guantanamo Bay.

Marnie Pearce's children will be suffering from being torn apart from their mother. Whatever your political views, can you not sympathise with them?

Edam - I don't disagree that we should be fighting for these injustices to stop - but is Amnesty also running such a "high profile" campaign for all the Dubai born women who are in custody for adultery, or have had custody of their children taken away?).

I don't see a campaign for the injustices for all women living there, I see a campaign for one British woman to be released and her children released to her.

Of course I'm sure somewhere along the line Amnesty is fighting for justice for all woman affected by these oppressive regimes, but until those systems are changed to benefit all woman I'm afraid that if you choose to live in a country with such horrific laws in place - you have to accept that you could fall foul of them and end up in trouble with the law.

so to try and summerise my last waffly post

Show me the petition to release all women in the UAE who are in jail for adultery, and to give them all a fair custody hearing and I'll sign it.

But FAQ, that's a doctrine of hopelessness - if you shouldn't campaign for one person unless you campaign for everyone so you don't bother helping anyone.

And yes, Amnesty does campaign for victims of injustice of every nationality. I'm not an expert on their work in the UAE, if any. But the whole point of Amnesty is they take up the cases of individuals.

I am sure you could find such a petition, FAQ.
Or start one yourself?

indeed I'm sure I could - but does anyone truly believe that even if a petition for Marnie succeeded it would have any impact for the non-British woman in jail for the same "crime"?

Like hell would it - a turn around would be purely for international relations and nothing more, they'd know that once the whole thing had died down the pressure to change their laws to stop the injustices towards UAE woman would lessen and they can continue as per "normal".

And by and large I reckon that a large propertion of those that have signed the Marnie Pearche petition would fade away into the distance - their justice for a British woman done, those who suffer the same fate but not known to the media circus would be forgotten.

I'm afraid it's something I've seen happen in the news many time over the years, both with those that have been convincted of proper crimes (for want of a better word) and those like Marnie Pearce.

There is a medai frenzy whipped up, there are shouts of how awful the justice system in X country is, how appalling the prisons are, how a British person shouldn't possibly have to put up with that.

They are released, or sent back to the UK to serve their term............and we never hear anything else about the justice and prison service in that country again until the next high profile case involving a foreigner.

Well said FAQ.

Western Expats by and large, IMO, live in blissful ignorance over there. They think they can live there and blindly ignoring many of the morality laws. It only takes one person to complain...

Make no bones about it, if I decided to leave my Western Christian husband in the UAE or the other way around, he can turn to me and say ok, go but the children stay. And I have no recourse under the law. I can have custody due to his benevolence. Nothing else.

I can only drive with his written permission. I can only have a mobile phone contract with his written permission.

When I left the UAE with the children, as soon as I went through passport control, and still in the sight of DH, he got 3 texts, one for each of us, almost automatically telling him that we were leaving the country with a number he could ring if there was a problem with it.

Marnie was not just another expat. She was an expat married to a Muslim. Muslim boys are more valued than girls so you think a Muslim man would give up his boys without a fight? I don't think the poster who mentioned the fact that he was Egyptian knows much about Egypt, Egyptian laws or Egyptians so I won't even go there.

I loathe these countries with such restrictive laws and such double standards with a passion.

But because they have such horrible double standards I don't see anything wrong with applying a few of our own and doing everything to get her out, with her children.

Launching a campaign for the same rights for all women in the Gulf states? All states with restrictive and torturous practices against women? My God. The size of the job defies comprehension and has the indelible taint of moral colonialism. If this is doable for this woman, do it.

Do you think this case shows there's something very wrong with the UAE, by any chance?

Can anyone honestly believe ordinary people should just live by the rules of a country that prosecutes a mother for being in the company of a non-relative but allows this kind of horrifying crime to go unpunished?

we cannot tell them to apply some of 'our' laws to get her out as much as they can't tell us to apply some of their laws to their women(over here). that is the essence of independent country.

what you suggest is more like colonialism, i fear.

we could do a campaign like the anti-apartied one to twist their arm to changing them but in the meantime our oil dependent economies would collapse.

I totally agree edam. I think the reasons for the lack of support for her can't be substantiated in that way. I felt very very uncomfortable about the way she wrote about her maid on the 'save marnie's babies' page and wonder if things like that have put people off?

It's not colonialism to object to that! Good God!

Fear of apparent colonialism is the sort of thing that has prevented the authorities from protecting girls who are sent home to Pakistan for force marriages.

It's disgusting.

And there is an aid programme to UAE? What?

I know, that took me aback too. Why the hell should a country that got rich on oil revenues get aid? (Unless it's because the princes keep it all for themselves...)

Nno no Edam: please don't misunderstand me. Once on our shores, under our jurisdiction. Leave your genital mutilation and your polygamy and your child marriages behind.

But moral colonialism is a bottomless pit: the United States would be too fond of using this as an excuse for aggression.

We should object, dislike, loathe -- what I am saying is we cannot impose that. We cannot force other countries to change their laws because we dislike them. We can ask them to: and they can say no, it's none of your business. No doubt there are many countries who would like to impose their own moral view on ours.

I am not a relativist: I don't think it's ok because it's a different culture. I think it's damned wrong and I think we are almost helpless. But we can cut ties and cut aid: we do not have to join the party.

i didn't say it was colonialism to object to that! I feel for Marnie, mother to mother, which is why i said in my first post that my feelings toward the case is 'ambiguous'.

I think some important information on the case has not come out. Maybe the campaigners need to know that people out there have those questions as they haven't anticipated them.