Children Assaulted/Critical but stable condition

[Claire2009]

Two boys aged 10 & 11 being questioned about this. Don't know how to do links but this might work

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7984392.stm

That Telegraph article is so disturbing. By the sounds of it the two suspects have been on a rmampage of violent crimes for a good while now, leading to them being fostered and removed (voluntary or otherwise) fromt heir home, and mum apparently "washing her hands of them". How mixed up and damaged must they be to act like this? How do children end up acting in such violent ways? Does it come from home life? So many questions.

Amd yes it does appear that the elder boys mother died aged 37, and that she was also the grandmother of the younger boy. the two victims were uncle and nephew.

so it seems from that artacle that one of the contributing factors to these boys being taken into care was their violent behavior.

And yet whoever was supposed to be looking after them saw fit to allow them out unsupervised?

Do you think that showing young children violent DVDs and computer games should be classed as a form of abuse?

I don't know what you do about families like these. But the signs were there, these boys should have been receiving counselling and intense therapy. They will get that now, but it's too bloody late now!

So who is going to care if the mother discards them like faulty goods?

I don't know why they did what they did, but unless we are going to have them put down like rabid dogs (as so many would like I suspect ) we need to find out. I struggle to tell the difference between 'evil' and damaged TBH. And I don't think any child that is so violent is anything but damaged.

i think if your a half decent human being who gives a rats tail of a shit about your kids - that watching 'Saw 3' aged 7 (a totally and wholly inappropriate thing to do granted) isn't going to turn them into the type of abusers that thee boys became

they became what they are becuase their mother and father didn't have any moral code and didn't give a shit.

PARENTING CLASSES MANDATORY FOR ALL

do you think the victims will get the same level of support?

Of course they will. And they will have vast amounts of sympathy too.

True enough I suppose.

Mandatory parenting classes will never come about. It'll be a nanny state. Although some people need bleedin' nannying.

Apparently most places offer voluntary parenting classes. But I think that if midwives or HV or anyone is concerned enough, then the parents either have to go to parenting classes or their children are put on the 'at risk' register.

how do you manage children like that though, and stop them going out? i don;t know

rhubs, i do think that allowing/condoning/turning a blind eye to children watching obscenely violent / pornographic adult material could well be abuse.

children do not have the ability to process what they are seeing as real/not real or accpetable/not acceptable if they are constatnyl exposed to it and violence in their real lives too

my son is categorically not allowed computer games that involve shooting etc. nor is he allwoed to watch horror or adult themed films

because he is a child and it is my duty to protect him, i don;t see what is fun about computer games that involve death, torture, stealing etc

Children are not born 'evil'.

They become 'damaged goods' through poor parenting, neglect and abuse etc, etc.

Not excuses, just really how it is.

i have typed this out and then deleted it about 5 times today. try not to flame me as its something i feel a bit shakey about at best.

my son is 8 and has ASD. this means that he already has quite a difficult and challenging personality and has quite extreme temper outbursts.

From the time i was 5 months pregnant with him his father was violant and abusive in every way. despite my best efforts Ds grew up seeing his father punch, kick, and hit me, he saw him come at me with knives, throw me around the room by my hair,hold me against the wall by my throat and sexually assault and rape me.

my son was very much loved and was shown a great deal of affection from both myself and his father. if anything he could be described as "spoilt"

however he had very violant outbursts if he couldn't have his own way. some of it was because he would get frustrated due to his lack of communication skills but mostly ( and this has taken a long time for me to come to terms with) was caused by the fact that he had learned from home that if you didn't get your own way you used violence to get it.

thankfully i left his father when Ds was 4.
the violence has only now (some 4 years and extensive councelling, art therapy, play therapy and intensive managment later) become something that would be considered typical for a child with his difficulties.

I know that this is a very different situation. but what im trying to expain is that home life has a massive impact on a child. if i had not left my childrens father my own son could have very easily grown into the sort of child capable of these crimes.

it breaks my heart to think of what may have happened. but i know that it is more than possible.

It is for that reason that i cannot hate the boys who attacked those boys.
i hate those who made them that way.

yes, 2shoes of course they will

seeing hte bigger picture regarding the perpertrators does not preclude sympathy and deep compassion for the victims and their families

that goes without saying

there is no limit on how much compassion you can have

it just takes a bit more imagination to feel anything other than contempt and derision for hte perpertrators

i thikn the default mode is sympathy for the victims, which is why it has not been spelt out explicitly in every post

Exactly fattiemamma.

Good on you for putting a stop to it. Your boys are lucky to have you.

How many don't have a parent to make a stand for them?

Look at a newborn baby and tell me that they are evil. They are not. How can they be?

why would you be flamed for that? it demonstrates exactly the sort of thing being discussed!

I dont allow out ds12 because of his aggression, I do think that allowing the boys out in this case is culpable yes, i would expect to be held to acunt for it. It's not easy watching a 9 year old 24 /7 but if its whats needed then hey ho; hopefully with the level f input he gets things will change. There's no evil in him though; a lack of control but also a naturally nice lad. There are just paryts of life that cannoyt be changed (sensory things, people) he cannot deal with.

But on no account will I have violent TV, films, computer games in my house; they get Wii Fit, and other games that Dh vets but we're so very careful.

It's gewtting in from somewhere though; his nice Church school has a massive gang culture; he says he will stab people. He gets it from other parents- the ones who think Terminator is for 4 year olds and that manhunt is a great laugh; even with maximumaprental input what can you do? He needs an education.

I hope there is a a real cause to all this; I just don't beleive children are evil without something creating them that way. And just as importantly I don't want to believe it either.

peachy - come back home! That is so awful .

Difference is fattiemumma, you actually care. I doubt your ds would have been like those children because you never would have 'washed your hands' of your son. He knew what love was and what it meant. I don't think the 2 boys who did this have ever experienced love.

They've been abandoned by their mother and turfed out of various foster homes. Theirs was a very different life indeed.

Fattie you did a wonderful thing getting away, you know that don't you?

I wish I had reason for ds1's aggression, but I don't. Actually I do I think- and in a few years I fully expect him to be diagnosed with a depression that would cause his issues in collaboratyion with the ASD (his dad, my beloved DH, has had severe non violent depression). He already ahs suspected anorexia and I think everything together is too much.

I still plan on sorting this; we've tried many tings but still other things left to try, or retry. A certain diet helps; he has an interest in Buddhism so we want to take him on a meditation course when we can afford it; we maintain fiorm boundaries and a supportive family. I'm pessimistic but not giving up

Orm the thing is the school itself is amazing- SENCO fab, etc. But there's a certain- dont know- proliferation of very indulgent aprents there: you know the type.... 'No of course you cant watch SAw, you're only six oh I am sorry of course you can I didnt mean to upset you'.

I see it all the time; with their kids it'll be OK, but mine is more vulnerable.

DS2 (suspected ADHD etc) is the opposite: referred to as 'kind honest and loving' and exposed to the same environment- ???? Who knows. Not BIBIC / SENCO / paeds that's for sure.

Aha... I know the sort...

I'm just so sorry you are having such a hard time

Peachy, it could well be that. The world is so full of things to confuse us. To an over-sensitive child it must be just too much at times. People constantly say things they don't mean and if you lack the basic social skills you are going to struggle to understand them. It can also be hard to get yourself understood, particularly if you're not sure what is it you're asking for in the first place. Describing feelings doesn't come easy.
He needs an outlet for his frustation and meditation sounds like an excellent idea.

I take it you have told him that it's ok to feel that way, it's ok to get angry and frustrated.

Both you and fattie have an enormous amount of love for your sons. It's that love and your determination that will see them through life. I should hope that should my love for my kids ever be tested, that I show the same determination, strength and courage that you two show on a daily basis.