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Children Assaulted/Critical but stable condition

379 replies

Claire2009 · 05/04/2009 22:09

Two boys aged 10 & 11 being questioned about this. Don't know how to do links but this might work

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7984392.stm

OP posts:
mamadiva · 07/04/2009 15:57

Could you send me a link to where it says they grew up surrounded by violence and aggression please? I appear to have missed that.

Nancy66 · 07/04/2009 16:00

No,I cant' sorry. but if i'm wrong I'll eat my laptop.

LeninGrad · 07/04/2009 16:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2shoestrodonalltheeggs · 07/04/2009 16:07

mamadiva I agree
I noticed someone earlier calling the murderers of JB "poor boys"
imo the victims are the ones deserving of sympathy and compassion.

OrmIrian · 07/04/2009 16:10

Is there only a limited supply of sympathy and compassion then?

Springfleurs · 07/04/2009 16:11

"Surely rehabilitation benefits society far more than retribution?"

In the case of children as young as this I thoroughly agree. How were these children (the perpetrators) ever supposed to defend themselves against the abuse it seems has been committed against them in their lives. They are in their own way as helpless as the others. I honestly don't believe I would feel differently if god forbid this was my child who had been hurt.

All the children in this case are victims and all I can think is thank goodness this is where it ended. It could have been so much worse with a child losing their life.

LuluisgoingtobeanAunty · 07/04/2009 16:14

mamadiva,we are all products of our upbringing, and what our parents/guardians/caregivers did and did not do for us or to us

if my children shoplifted,for example,i would have to take a long hard look at myself and DH and our parenting and why our chidl did not know this was wrong,or knew it was wrong and did it anyway

children do not exist in a vacuum therefore you cannot blame them and only them for their actions

especially if as parents we want to take the credit when they are good and well behaved

you can't take the credit but not the bad stuff

mamadiva · 07/04/2009 16:15

No just to me it makes no sense I do not understand in what way are they 'poor' boys?

As I said an abuse victim loses all sympathy and basically interest in them as soon as they become an abuser in my eyes.

Then again I'm starting to get into the whole ''speculation'' that they were ever actually abused, we do not know this so it seems hypocritical that people are moaning about speculation that they are just little shits when it's fine tp say well they were abused you know (not in those words).

Nancy66 · 07/04/2009 16:17

children from loving, secure homes tend not to be in the care system.

TheMightyBoosh · 07/04/2009 16:18

2shoes (tis I peachy dont get all uppity)- sorry the vermin was someone else, meant to talk to you and refer to the vermin by someone else

My post stillsatnds though

mamadiva · 07/04/2009 16:18

As I said before I am not a believer in the whole sob story of 'oh I was abused so I have every right to stab you boo hoo'

That's not how it works I have an entire set of family as living bloody proof of this and I think it's pretty safe to assume that they ahd seen far worse than these thugs have nowadays.

Anyway when there is proof of abuse then I will discuss until then 'speculation' should be stopped as I was told earlier.

TheMightyBoosh · 07/04/2009 16:22

Oh I dont have more compasssion for the two perps BTW; my majority sympathies are with the victims naturally

But I think the criminals are whoever caused them to become as they did. That deosn't make the kids behaviour any less than terrible, but is much more prioductive than looking for nothing beyone who did what at the incident time.

I have a severely aggressive child. I watch him 24 / 7 but even thats not always enough. A less than devoted aprent and it cold easily be him taht's in this position. I fear for that; I feel almost certain prison is where he is headed and that petrifies me and so I see him in this.

I also have 3 non aggressive ds's mind, 2 of those with sn (well ne dx'd, as well as ds1, and another suspected ADHD) so I dont think its all me

mamadiva · 07/04/2009 16:23

I know 18Yo triplets who have the nicest sweetest parents out and had the nicest home etc, 2 of them are also the biggest arseholes I have ever met in my life because guess what children as well as adults have minds of their own, 2 of them were put in care when they were 10 because no one could cope with them, they were passed to just about every family member possible.

I lived across the road from them and they ahd a very enviable upbringing they were just destined to be arseholes I reckon and yes one of them is an evil shite. So it does happen anddon't start with the poverty stuff either that also does'nt stand tehre are exceptions to every rule.

TheMightyBoosh · 07/04/2009 16:23

I was also abused physically BTW and no its not an excuse but severe psychological damage can lead to mental jealth issues in some children, that's a fact. A child with a psychosis is not repsonsible in the way a same age child with a healthy mind is. Also fact.

beanieb · 07/04/2009 16:24

Gosh - attempted murder that's a heavy heavy charge. I only hope that someone somewhere steps in and stops the tabloids from creating a big 'hang-em-up' feeling. I wonder if it's possible to keep their names out of the papers now?

LuluisgoingtobeanAunty · 07/04/2009 16:26

mamadiva, who knows what goes on behind closed doors? in nice houses with nice parents

mamadiva · 07/04/2009 16:26

Mighty that is the point I am trying to make though people have to stop blaming the parents all the time at teh end of the day correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sorry to use your son as an example, but if you did everything in your power your son would still be aggressive I assume?

Which means in no way is it your fault so it is possible that kids can just be aggressive off their own backs.

Nancy66 · 07/04/2009 16:27

won't be able to keep the names off the internet that's for sure.

The press couldn't name Sean Mercer before he had been charged with Rhys Jone's murder but his name was all over the web. Same with Baby P's mum - a quick Google and you can find her name and photo.

PeachyWithTheBirthdayBas · 07/04/2009 16:28

(Formerly MB, namechanged back) Yes, but also it's not his fault- he has autism, he has no empathy at all, he's also a victim- of a bastard illness I loathe but also of society as anyone with ASD autmayically becomes a target themselves (what do we hate more than people who are different? )

cestlavie · 07/04/2009 16:30

Legally speaking, I believe the age of criminal responsibility is 10 - below that age, children are judged to lack the capacity to form the mens rea (mental element) which many offences call for. From 10-14 they can be charged with more serious criminal offences but not, I think, all offences. The rationale is various, but in short it comes down to the fact that modern criminology views criminal activity by children as being a symptom of problems in development which they lack the capacity to influence - in the same way we say that kids shouldn't have sex under 16 as they lack the ability to understand it in its broader context or all its implications.

The problem with ages (like the age of sexual consent) is that it's somewhat arbitrary - clearly some kids have capacity at an earlier age than others. I guess the courts try to take this into account as best they can on a case-by-case basis, subject to the legislation.

In this case, I find it pretty hard to see that the children involved couldn't form the mens rea required to be charged with attempted murder - the mens rea being the intent to kill or seriously harm. I would imagine that the vast majority of kids of this age would understand that repeatedly cutting someone with a knife, repeatedly hitting them with a brick and then throwing them down a steep slope into water would cause serious injury.

The question then is, if they're found guilty (as they probably should be on the facts out there), what the appropriate punishment/ treatment should be. You would hope that in determinining this the courts would take into account all the evidence (of which we have none at the moment) - all I would say, is given the facts we do (i.e. in care, history of violence and nature of the offence) it would be very surprising if they had upbringings which were entirely normal.

beanieb · 07/04/2009 16:34

mamadiva in answer to your question "I just fail to understand how anyone can seem to have more compassion for the two who did this rather than the ones who were actually injured" from my point of view I feel so much compassion for the two kids who were attacked and their families, but I don't think a normal reaction would be to express compassion for them but completely ignore the other two children in this case.

They need our compassion too because they are still kids, they are obviously damaged and it would be so much better if as a society we had something in place which allowed us to deal with these kinds of kids in a compassionate way rather than just calling for their blood.

I just think that there will always be people throwing about the words 'evil' at children who have done terrible things.

this story about a case in Norway and how they deal with children who do awful awful things is worth a read.

mamadiva · 07/04/2009 16:35

Lulu as I said I know their parents and I used to hang about with those kids when they were normal, 2 of them turned when they started school for no reason, their mum and dad babysat me after school when I was little very close friends of my mums at the time.

I played with them until they were 5 and I was 9 LOL you know what family friends are like... , and two of them thought it would be funny to stone their sisters kitten to death

When they were 9 breaking point came when one of them put a knife in the top of the bottom bunk so when their sister sat down it would hit her in the face, luckily they were thick and used a butter knife but still there was no reason for that, the mum slapped one of them (and rightfully so) she burst into tears feeling bad and what'd he do at 9 years old... he tried to set her on fire now apparently there was no SN in any of tehm and personally I'm surprised he's still walking the streets, he's dangerous and so is his half wit of a brother now tell em that 'nromal' children don't get mucked up!

mamadiva · 07/04/2009 16:40

I don't hate people who are different Peachy, my younger cousin has serious ADHD and was mugged last night because he was 'acting drunk' which he was'nt I had spent the night with him he is just too quick in his actions and sometimes gets a bit unstable.

LeninGrad · 07/04/2009 16:43

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LeninGrad · 07/04/2009 16:45

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