Row over Secret Classroom Filming (Channel 5) Next Wednesday

[JoolsToo]

any thoughts?

Might make interesting viewing.

[sigh] - rather you than me hmb!

even the school they showed as a model had me slack jawed! locked gates?

I think it's worth noting that the porn was done in a media studies lesson - so perhaps the controls on those computers aren't as stringent as normal because they have to be able to access more sites than the usual? Agree it's a bit alarming that they can access them at all though.

And I'm so glad that it's out that OFSTED is a farce. I've always suspected that!

So what do we do about behaviour in schools then? What is the answer?

I helped at Brownies last night for the first time, my DD isn't old enough to go, these girls were between 7 and 10 but some of them were so mouthy I felt like whacking them one. One of them even mimicked what I said to her. When the leader was talking they all continued to talk amongst themselves, I couldn't believe how tolerant she was.

They have to be made to see that their actions have consequences. If they will not work they should be removed from the classroom. These are often kids wwho's parents will do nothing to support the school. If that is the case, fine , let the parents have them full time. Let them educate them. The kids have no interest in school, or respect in the teachers, so let them be their parents responisibility.

Violence to others , out.

Bad language, fixed term exclusion.

Schools can do alsost nothing nowerdays. Some schools have even stoped children picking litter (with safty kit) as it is 'demeaning'. But someghow it is OK for the poor bloody caretaker to clear up after kids who just spit food out on the floor..

I agree with the earlier point made by hmb that many kids are turning up to lessons (usually very late!) without the slightest intention of listening or learning anything. They seem to think they're doing you a favour just by being there. Their attitude stinks!

They have no idea how privileged they are to have an education. I feel like telling them that 130 years ago, before education became compulsory most of them would have been working 15 hour shifts in a mine or factory. My own great-grandfather was denied a grammar school education, because his parents needed him to start work as soon as possible to supplement the family's income. He had to take a lowly job in a lace-making factory and was never able to fulfil his potential. He would have loved the educational opportunities that today's kids abuse and squander!

I think teaching in a secondary school is one of the hardest jobs in today's society. How do you motivate lazy, apathetic children with serious attitude problems, who think the world owes them a living, to engage their ignorant brains and actually want to learn??

I get sick and tired of children turning up to lessons with no exercise books or equipment. I am constantly handing out paper and pens (I always ask for the pens back at the end of the lesson to try and encourage them to remember to be better prepared next time). Last week a pupil asked me for a textbook and I said "it would be nice if you said please". Her response was "I don't do please!!"

If the kids get low marks in their tests they automatically blame the teacher. "Sir it's all your fault", I've heard some of them say. Er no, I don't think so kiddo, YOU are responsible for your own learning!!!

I think something has gone very wrong with the moral fibre of our society. We're all becoming too soft as a nation and kids are gaining the upper hand. It's time to stop the rot before it's too late. All I can say working in a school is that I refuse to compromise my own high standards and stoop to their level. I am always polite and try to treat the children as I would like to be treated myself. I refuse to let children be rude to me. (I have also joined a Union in case I have to break up a fight just for my own protection).

Don't know whether to laugh or cry about Hula's point about teaching being easier in prison than in school.

Re: Porn - I'm pretty sure that on the program they only showed google's home page with the words entered as a search phrase (prior to submission)... it is quite possible the school had porn filters in place.

SecondhandRose. I think it possibly starts from zero tolerance and builds from that ? Once the ground rules are set and the groundwork is done, so to speak, a skilled teacher will have the kids' respect and generally the children will behave. (haven't run this by dw, but I think her style is come in hard and heavy on day one, get their attention, let them know who's boss and then very quickly they're sorted and she can focus on being a magnificent teacher for the rest of the year, IYSWIM... I'd add the respect / fondness goes both ways.

On a logical level, if we feel kids at school are far worse than, say 20 years ago, there are only a few key factors that have changed: mass media - penetration of TV / radio / multimedia / Internet / film / videogames etc. and the parenting skills / social situation these kids have been exposed to....

With regards to the hardcore disruptors, one can hold the kid responsible for their actions, but surely it's necessary to examine the poor parenting and lack of interest that seems so routine when you dig into their background...

I concur!

All schools do have filters on their PCs by the LEA as well as their own. But it is impossible to filter every site. New sites arrive every sigle day. There is NO software that can filter every single dodgy site. It is impossible to completely restrict every site.

Most (all?) school's have an internet/computer use policy. These will lay out exactly what is and is not allowed on a school computer. All children sign (sometimes part of the school agreement) and sually their parents too to say that their child can use the internet and school and that their child will follow these rules. One of this is always no access to such inappropriate sites. Like porn, racist sites, offensive sites, etc. This is generally pointed out to them verbally as well. If a child breaks these rules they should then be removed from having computer access at school.

I am amazed that some people seem to think that this type of behaviour from children is acceptable.

who does?

Oh I fully agree. And nothing would open the parents eyes quite as much as having to cope with their kid's poor behavior instead of expecting the school to deal with them.

There seem to be ever more numbers of parents who simply make no effort to dicipline their children. We all know that you can be the best parent in the world and still have a kid who goes off the deep end. But if you are a crap parent the odds are on that you will have a horrid child! People seem to be too scared of upsetting their children by setting limits and telling them 'no'! And then the kids come into school with no standards or manners.

For example I teach one child with an iep for ebd, in other words his behaviour is an issue. Quite a big issue. He isn't dyslexi, dyspraxic, have ASD or ADHD, he just doesn't want to behave. On his report is says 'he misbehaves in lessons, he doesn't know why'. Well I bloody do! He does it because he wants to and far too often he is allowed to get away with it.

We do need reform of the curriculm too, but we need to sort out the behaviour issue

Xanthe

Amazed at the comments by pupils when they have done badly in a test, all part of the blame free society we live in, it all stinks

Is it as bad everywhere - as in globally?

We would dearly love to emmigrate before our two get to the stage where their friends go out to the pub (I would say drinking age but it won't be 18!) We cannot stand, with a vengance the youth culture that is around that they go out and get totally s**t faced on a regular basis. It is very depressing to think that that is all they could aspire to when they are older.....

The drinking age is 21 in the States so that is a possibility - anyone any suggestions - good or bad countries to consider?

but the parents obviously don't cope with their kids bad behaviour thats why they're like that! Parents appear to let their kids do just what they want then get all arsey when someone else chastises them!

Caligula - I really am not joking at all; I wish I was. But teaching in a prison is FAR easier than teaching in the secondary school I was in. There is discipline strategies that work you see, there are sanctions that can and are used consistently, there are reward systems that work. And the bottom line is: the lads are OUT if they don't follow the rules - they are immediately excluded from the class if they step out of line even once. And the teacher is always supported by management.

If it goes so far as a nicking, then it goes in front of the govenor. The inmate pleads guilty/not guilty. The inmate and the tutor then give their side of each story. And witness info from other inmates/staff are given. Past reports and behaviour in the prison are noted (not their original crime note). A decision is made and a sanction applied if proved.

Kids in school need to know that things will be taken up and they will recieve a meaningful snaction if they behaviour in an inacceptable manner. It is not fair ont he teacher and it is certainly not fair on those pupils who do want to work. If we let the naughty kids get away with it (which is what is happening in many schools now) then everyone suffers eventually. There are no winners.

Totally agree.

Another depressing consequence of all this, is that kids who come from homes where discipline is imposed and a regular standard of behaviour is expected, are then sent into this environment where the standards of behaviour are lower - so all the reasonable, decent behaviour they've learned at home (and hopefully at primary school level) is totally undermined in this new, insane regime. It's not only teachers who are being let down by the fact that this behaviour has been normalised; it's decent parents as well. To say nothing of the children of course. I guess that's one of the major reasons why those who can afford it, go private - it's not just because of the academic standards, it's because you know that the school is going to uphold your standards of behaviour as well. Kids who behave like those on TV last night, get expelled from most private schools.

Didn't see the programme but from what she's read about it, 17yo dd1 is astonished at the behaviour described. The pupils at her school wouldn't get away with that sort of thing at all as they're pretty strict. It makes you wonder what the difference is between the good and the bad schools.

I posted this on another thread but what do people think of Ruth Kelly's latest idea? Boarding Schools

Some really interesting points here.

I agree with Caligula's sad observation that the worst impact from the 'disruptors' is not so much on their education but on the impact it has on the behaviour / 'group think' / attitude of those who have been well brought up.

I hadn't heard about the boarding school thing linked to by suedonim. Sounds like a great way to get the disruptors out and re-focus the more normal, more hard-working, more respectful children on the task at hand. Most teachers would prefer to be teaching than managing behaviour, that's for sure.

I am not in favour of coporal punishment but there have to be alternative sanctions available.

dh went to a boarding school where they were given various punishments for stepping out of line such as having to scrub floors at six in the morning, doing the laundry and being dropped off 10 miles from the school and having to walk back. More of a deterant than 20 mins in a classroom at breaktime.

But those punishments wouldn't be handed today because they 'infringe childrens rights' and are seen to be 'demeaning'. And if parents don't support schools and the sanctions on offer at the moment, it's unlikely that they will support sending their little darlings to baording school.

How would children be kept at these schools? If they wanted to leave they could. Or are we talking about 'secure' units but with a different name?

hmb, I was more shocked by the reaction on the TES forum than I was by the programme itself
I am sure when I was at school behaviour wasn't perfect but the difference was that if we misbehaved it was our fault - not the teacher's! Nobody tried to defend bad behaviour!
I used to wonder why teachers put up with so much crap but now I can see that the total lack of solidarity has a lot to do with it.

That is the problem; there is no sliding scale of sanctions. It seems to be that if a child is being disruptive then they get a few detentions, a couple of suspensions and then they are out. Do we send them to borstal equivalent at this stage? It seems a bit draconian. We need to make sure that there are appropriate sanctions/rewards systems available to parents and teachers which can help the child amend their behaviour. The parents are sometimes scared of these children too so they need help with discipline.

Crowd control is not part of the teachers job description. Teachers should not have to manage this sort of behaviour, they are employed to help the kids learn things from the curriculum not basic manners and ethics.