Pregnant Woman Told To Leave Pub

[stinkymonkey]

the nanny state continues

I can understand where the landlord is coming from, though I don't agree with what she did.

Raises hand. Agrees with Boffin! Good on ya.

You can care about morality as much as you like, DSM, but you should not try to force anyone else to subscribe to your morality.

It is up to the individual, pregnant or not, to decide how to run their own life. Not your job to force them into behaving into accordance with your moral code or understanding of relative risk.

AFAIK publicans have every right not to serve drunk people. But that is not what this case is about. It's refusing to serve a pregnant woman.

I am getting a bit frustrated with the wilful and determined insistence on this thread by some people to ignore the real science and published research in favour of superstitious flapping. But then I am a Boffin, I suppose. I should know better than to expect everyone to think things through in a considered way. Some people wear their prejudices like comfy old slippers, and nothing the rest of us say or do makes a particle of difference.

Edam - they have the right to refuse service to anyone they don't want to serve.

Seriously, its been covered in great depth on this thread.

Do you think then, that my rights to not serve a pregnant woman are less important than her rights to demand service from me?

Do I have rights not to lecture to a woman in a burqa that supersede her rights to attend the lecture? I think not.

I am not prejudiced!

What a ridiculous accusation.

I am not suggesting that one drink is going to cause harm. Not at all. I am not stupid, thanks.

Boffin!

Thats is a ridiculous analogy.

A woman in a burqa is definitely not doing anyone any harm. A pregnant woman drinking alcohol might be.

By DSM on Wed 01-Apr-09 21:54:01
Boffin - there is plenty of evidence to suggest that drinking alcohol in pregnancy is harmful. I am not even going to begin quoting or linking, because I presume you are aware of it.

Yes you did!!!!

I happen to think that wearing veils is detrimental to the greater good of society, and can lead to enormous levels of discrimination and even the eventual breakdown of society as a whole.

But that is my business. Veil wearers obviously think differently. Both views are valid.

If you read the thread fully, you will see that I have, on a number of occasions, referred to 'pregnant women drinking' as being having more than the recommended number of units.

I have already stated that the occassional drink is very unlikely to do any harm.

I happen to think that wearing veils is beneficial to the greater good of society, and can lead to enormous levels of understanding of other cultures and even the eventual unity of society as a whole.

But that is my business. Some non-veil wearers obviously think differently. Both views are valid.

So what if there was evidence that there were greater levels of domestic violence in households where women wore veils??

DSM - sorry if I'm being a bit dim but what is the "recommended" number of units for pregnant women and who has recommended them?

Erm.. well, sadly there is not much one can do to control what goes on in any individuals household.

Much as I would never suggest regulating how much a pregnant woman were to drink, in her onw home.

As the exact amount that is safe is not known, the advice from the Department of Health is that pregnant women and women trying to become pregnant should not drink at all.

If you do chose to drink when you are pregnant then limit it to one or two units, once or twice a week. And never get drunk.

You know, I am a rather chubby girl and have an 'apple' body shape rather than a 'pear'. There have been occasions in the past when people have asked me if I was PG when I definitely wasn't. I did have a bit of a spat with a bloke in the bar who had a go at me for smoking (this was about 10 years ago), luckily he was so mortified over having made the mistake that he bought me a pint: BUT if we accept that people have the right to harass pregnant women according to their own fuckwitted prejudices, what about women who look PG but are not?
And let's not forget the women who are pregnant but not only don't LOOK it but also don't KNOW yet... All this foetal rights/policing pregnant women crap has only one logical conclusion: the removal of human rights (to do what the fuck you like with your own body) from all women.

say it as it is SGB

DSM - thank you for clarifying that, I was confused by the 'recommended levels' thing when I thought the advice was not to drink at all. But then as the statement itself implies, the issue is clouded with confusion and a lack of evidence.

I think it's morally reprehensible to down a pint and a half when pregnant. Similar to smoking when pregnant afaic

HMC: well then it's up to you not to do those things. ANd you are entitled to your opinion of other people's behaviour but you are not entitled to control it.

I note that nobody and especially DSM responded to the actual research papers I posted extracts of below.

Based on a VERY brief surmise of medical journals (I do have a proper job after all). But really, the jury is still out on the science. Which does not mean licence to do whatever you like. But equally should not give licence to a moral hijack by SPUC types. The article quoted below which points out the mistaken use of the term 'foetal alcohol syndrome' by its first investigators, instead of the more accurate 'foetal alcohol-abuse synrome' is telling. If that author is right, there are NO documented cases in which low to moderate alcohol use has provided conclusive evidence of FAS. All cases thus far seem to be where there is evidence of substantial alcohol use in the mother.

Leaving aside the very controversial and inconclusive scientific position, I think the social scientific argument made by some is also very plausible. That over-concern about FAS had led to a 'moral panic', as ever, about pregnancy that is about diminishing women's rights over their own bodies.

Moreover, it appears the research does suggest that most of the damage in FAS is done in the early structurally formative stages, between 4-10 weeks. When many, many women do not know they are pregnant.

Hey, let's just ban women from drinking full stop, huh?

Wilf, I read your posts earlier, and all the subsequent posts on the thread, and also was surprised at the lack of response.

What you posted was probably the most enlightening information on the entire thread!

The advice to avoid eating peanuts whilst pregnant may well have been so mistaken and counterproductive that it may have contributed to the massive RISE in peanut allergies seen in the UK. That advice has now been reversed. But the UK official advice was typical in its approach of ignoring the reams of evidence suggesting it was barking up the wrong tree, in favour of the easier to digest message.

Thank heavens as adults we possess the mental faculties to THINK FOR OURSELVES.

Thanks you WilfSell and vlc, my points exactly.

Inaccurate or speculative science (published with the aim of making a splash and possibly to raise a researcher's or organisation's profile) can be more dangerous than no science at all. (Measles epidemic, anyone?)

In terms of pg, moderation is absolutely key in finding a middle ground and in the absence of firm evidence. Not prohibition.

A further point nobody has made yet: we have to remember that clean piped water supplies have only been reliably available for the last century in this country, and previously all women and children used to habitually drink copious quantities of weak beer as a means on intaking fluid throughout the day, as this was technically safer than the water. This seems to have had little if any negative impact on public health to speak of.

But afaik this landlord is not controlling the pregnant ladies alcohol consumption, just what alcohol she consumes on his premisses which he is entitled to do.

To be fair, I love to drink snakebite and black-there are many pubs that will not serve it as it has a bad reputation for causing aggressive behavior (way back when me thinks) I either drink a different drink in those pubs or go to another pub that will sell it to me-I dont get all in a flap about being classed as a potentially aggressive drunk, I dont get in a flap at all if they wont sell it to me-no biggie their choice.