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I'm a diehard Leftie but my son is going to private school - Will Self

229 replies

Swedes · 15/02/2009 23:11

Discuss

OP posts:
AbbyLubber · 16/02/2009 11:26

Cherryblossom, wonderful post. Agree with every word. But here's the hard part. What WOULD we like to see?

ABetaDad · 16/02/2009 11:35

cherryblossoms - I am right with you on this one even though I send my kids private:

"know people who have taken the non-state route with real remorse"

Me and my wife talk about this endlessly. I regret having to send our kids private - and it is not the money. I just hate the fact that they are growing up without any idea how so many people really live. Its an unreal world they live in.

If it is any consolation I had an Amercan friend over yesterday who is a bit younger than me and struggling with exactly the same questions in deciding where to send his kids in the US. Go private or buy an expensive house in a nice middle class enclave.

Even though we come from different sides of the Atlantic both he and me come from not very well off farming backgrounds and did well enough at school to reach high up the academic ladder but we went to village primary schools with a lot of kids fom very poor backgrounds and only got a better secondary education by virtue of having a few brains and our parents scrimping and scraping to pay fees.

cherryblossoms · 16/02/2009 11:47

Hmmm.

Well, I think this is where time comes in. Firstly, I'd like to see an acceptance that all is not well and that a hasty solution probably not going to be successful.

So, I'd like to see research. Research costs, and so it needs a real political will behind it. I'd like research into the alternative education models in existence in other countries. I'd like that research to be holistic and looking at long-term effects of those systems. ie. not looking at individual aspects of the systems in isolation, but how they cohere, and the social/academic results thereof.

I'd like research into our current system; what are the factors that can make a school succeed/fail? Who is satisfied/dissatisfied? Why?

I'd like people's consciousnesses raised to the point where they are interested.

I suspect there has to be a degree of difference and latitude in what's offered. Britain is just too liberal by nature to accept a one-size fits all. And why should it be otherwise?

In the spirit of throwing something into the ring, I, personally, would be willing to trade small schools for larger schools. But only if the size is there to provide a wide range of tuition, in a wide range of disciplines, taught at an absolutely excellent level. And well-organised.

Really, if schools are supposed to be comprehensive, catering to the differing educational demands of their pupils (performance, art, academic,) , they may well have to be large in order to be cost-effective.

So, I personally, would be happy about larger, all-singing, all-dancing schools.

But I think that wouldn't work for all kids. Some cannot handle big schools. There would have to be different options available. And they would have to be all equal in excellence, if not equal in content, in order for there not to be this hideous scramble that we see now.

Difficult, eh!

shonaspurtle · 16/02/2009 11:48

Another poor soul sacrificed on the alter of my parent's leftie principles.

I went to the local primary, which was fine and then the local comp, which was pretty dire. But, you know what, I had an ok education and with the massive support of my parents, lots of extra-curricular stuff and an overwhelming family ethos that education and working hard was important, my brother and I did as well as our privately educated friends.

We were bright though and that helps - a lot. Natural ability and parental support will (nearly) always get you through imo. I will probably be far more worried if ds turns out to have sn or is just not academic.

Mind you, I probably have a better idea of what's an ok school given my experience. Surface impressions can be very misleading.

cherryblossoms · 16/02/2009 11:52

And, btw, I know my suggestion isn't "the" answer. I'm happy to be told what's wrong with it, too.

Point is, if we don't start really thinking about it, our "thinking" will be done for us.

Abbylubber and Abetadad -

TheFallenMadonna · 16/02/2009 11:56

Hasn't he written this article before? Sure I've been on another thread about it a while back. I said then that he isn't in that case a die hard leftie. And that is still what I think.

AbbyLubber · 16/02/2009 12:08

Cherryblossoms, totally agree with point #1. Am also fine with larger and better-resourced schools.

But I lack your faith in research in these areas. The problem is the paradigm shift thing - in the academy, which I'm in myself, everyone has a vested interest/position to defend. Phonics people would do phonics research and liberals would be eager about Scandinavia and conservatives about France.

IMHO, what's most badly wrong is actually fairly simple. Some educational basics - calculating, grammar - are absolutely vital, but utterly boring to teach and only a very gifted teacher can make them interesting to the kids. If you don't get them, however, nothing will ever work for you in formal education.

In the past, less gifted teachers were backed by force majeure, to which none of us would like to return. But without it, the teacher's job has become entertainment and crowd control, forcing her or him to focus on the troublemaking kids at the expense of everyone else in the room, keep them happy, help them to get Cs even if no-one gets an A (as the govt encourages). This actually rewards the bottom range of the ability spectrum for bad behaviour. Obviously this is not true of every or even most schools, but it's a tendency in EVERY sector. Lots of teachers side dementedly with the 'problem' kids out of a genuine longing tto help them. Or, alas, a sense that they are cooler.

The answer is probably rigorous and often-reviewed sets and streams and a tougher Head with or without bodyguards to help out with parents. Some comps have these, of course.

Now everyone can have a go at me...

bagsforlife · 16/02/2009 12:11

Bizarrely,I think really the only way to make it fair is actually not to offer any 'choice' at all.

If private schools and grammar schools were abolished and schools allocated on a lottery basis, it would force everyone to go to their local school. This is the only way anything is going to change. As previous posters have testified, the children from supportive, educated parents would 'survive'. Those children who have disadvantaged backgrounds would benefit from schools attracting better teachers, not being labelled as the local 'sink' school etc.

This is very, very simplistic and God knows how one would implement it.

bloss · 16/02/2009 13:00

Message withdrawn

UnquietDad · 16/02/2009 13:03

litchick - it's true we all have a vested interest, but ignoring it and going private seems the "easy" option for those who can afford it.

abbylubber - yes, your earlier formulation seems fair. What I think is that it's a shame we can't have a state system which works, but also an alternative which is not predicated upon parents' ability to pay.

UnquietDad · 16/02/2009 13:08

bagsforlife "If private schools and grammar schools were abolished and schools allocated on a lottery basis, it would force everyone to go to their local school"

I see where you are coming from, but very hard to "abolish" anything once it has been made - if private schools were forced to "become" state schools, other, more exclusive schools would spring up in their place. And I'm a supporter of grammar schools, having been to one - I firmly believe they are a route an appropriate education for academic children from non-affluent backgrounds.

I agree there is a lot to be said for people going to their local school, and this is something I support in practice as well as in principle, with both my children. However, I don't see how a lottery would achieve this. A lottery would have exactly the opposite effect in my city - children going not to their local schools but to schools in far-flung parts of the city, causing travel nightmares and having a hugely detrimental effect on communities and friendships.

cherryblossoms · 16/02/2009 13:09

Abbylubber and bagsforlife - well done for throwing stuff into the ring!

bagsforlife - initially I was v. in favour of a lottery. Then I thought about it a bit. In principle, it's not a bad idea. But ...

For it to work, it requires a consortium of schools over a given geographical area. How big is that area going to be? What shape will that area cover? Will it cover LEA/borough lines? Will that solve the issue of areas where parents are scrambling to cross borough lines? It'll stop them, but will it actually assuage problems that are borough-wide, that are compelling them to act in that way.

There's no way you can have both lottery consortia and local schools. Some children will end up travelling large distances in such a system. Especially in rural areas. Isn't that against the basic, fundamental ethos of comprehensives?

And will the system be in place for every child? Won't you have to re-inforce sibling criteria? Most people won't manage with their dc at separate schools, all over the place. So there will have to be a policy of get one in, get all in. Would that be fair, though? And what if you move?

And what will people feel about it? I really mean that - it's a serious consideration. The British aren't very fond of "mass" experiences, they're a pretty liberal, individualistic bunch. I just don't think they'd take well to such a directed, "choiceless" experience. At some level, it simply makes explicit the lack of choice available in the current system, which causes such offense and ill-feeling as it is.

And isn't there something just, intrinsically wrong, wrong, wrong about children being allocated a school, any school? One problem, now, is that some children just do not fit with the school they are allocated. That situation will be magnified and writ large in a lottery system.

Not everyone wants the same thing. eg. not everyone wants an academic school. Many do but the incredible and increasing popularity of the BRIT school tells us that children and parents are wise enough to recognise that excellence takes many forms.

How do you lottery for that? Imagine if you quiet, academic child is allocated the BRIT school, whilst their arty, performing friend is trekking off to the traditional, exams, exams, exams place?

You can only do it if you squash all schools and children into the same shape. And people are objecting enough to that already.

And as I said earlier, it strikes me that, at a fundamental level, the lottery system is an acceptance and admission of the failure of the current system, without positing any more positive solution. It produces a necessary limit (in that all schools in a consrtium will, by necessity, have to offer identical content).

Again; if someone were to seriously put forward Borges' Babylonian Lottery as a solution to the injustices of the capitalist system, we'd think they were barking. So why does it seem attractive when applied to our dc's schools? We must be really desperate to be giving this idea serious consideration.

Just my twopence worth. And it's only offered in the interests of discussion. As I said, I used to be quite a proponent of the lottery system. I can see why it might be used as a short-term solution. However, I do believe that as a long-term solution it puts a necessary limit on what might be achieved in a more exciting and imaginitive school system.

bagsforlife · 16/02/2009 13:16

UnquietDad, I am a product of a grammar school and send my DCs to GS!!!

But having been accused (not personally but generally on these sorts of threads) of everything being me, me, me, I was just musing on how everything could be made fairer. I can see it would be impossible really.

Also, just to play devils advocate, round here plenty of people suddenly 'don't mind' the distance when their children get into the GS and plenty send their children 20/30 miles to get there. But when they don't get into the GS, it's 'I'm glad they don't have to travel that far'. You just can't win.

bagsforlife · 16/02/2009 13:25

cherryblossoms, well if it eventually worked that everyone went to their local school, there wouldn't be specialist schools, they would all be the same....wouldn't they??

I am not a teacher, nor in the education profession or anything like that, so these are just my personal musings!! Obviously you know an awful lot more about it all than me and it is very informative.

I just don't know what the answer is. It is all so depressing this two tier system we have at the moment.

Thunderduck · 16/02/2009 13:43

I agree Cherry. The more choice we have the better, not every school is right for every child.

TheFallenMadonna · 16/02/2009 13:47

All schools will never be the same because the children who attend and community in which it is found will vary considerably. I guess the only way around that would be a district-wide lottery, which might well work in towns, but in my area (where all secondary schools are a bus ride away) would cause travel issues for many.

sinkingfast · 16/02/2009 13:52

I went to a grammar school and live in the same area now, which still has grammars. I think I would like to see smaller schools but grouped together on the same site so they can share facilities. So rather than having one massive school of 1800-2000 pupils, you would have two or three schools on the same site, each offering a slightly different bias but also offering movement between the schools for different subjects. It would also mean that a lot of the terrible choices that kids are forced to make through timetabling could be avoided. Plus it would put more power in the hands of the teachers, so if they saw a child in school C (the BRIT school) who would actually suit being part of school A (the more "academic" one), it can be suggested that they either move to that school or move towards taking more of their lessons in school A.

For example, the grammar school in our town has fantastic facilities whereas the secondary across town is a very poor relation in comparison. If they shared the same site, both sets of pupils could share the great facilities, plus those bright children from the secondary could move across to take some of their lessons e.g. the grammar offers the 3 sciences separately for GCSE but the secondary doesn't, so if you flunk your 11+, you can wave goodbye to being a doctor (at 11!! how ridiculous is that). Conversely, some fo the grammar pupils would, I'm sure, be interested in some of the subjects offered at the secondary.

I would have tests (eek!) in Year 6 to determine which school would suit children best, but I would only give these tests 50% of the weight - the other 50% would be down to primary/prep school recommendation (with follow up in the next few years so that primaries could be hauled up for ridiculous recommendations).

I reckon by giving teachers more power to help pupils who may not have the parental backing of others, we would go a long way to righting a great deal of the wrongs in our education system.

bagsforlife · 16/02/2009 14:01

OK will try and articulate this a bit better.

At the moment it isn't working because all schools AREN'T the same. Naturally everyone wants to go to school x for several reasons and no-one wants to go to school y for other reasons. Whenever there is a choice, this is always going to happen. Even with the voucher system which is always suggested....so everyone will use their vouchers at school x not school y.

If all schools were the same, all taught the same syllabus, all had mixed ability, all admitted children regardless of their parental income, then there could be no 'better' school. You would HAVE to bus children in from different areas, you would have to mix the children up.

Children (like mine for instance) who go to grammar schools now wouldn't suddenly become less intelligent because they have gone to a non selective school, and less academic children wouldn't suddenly become brainier. But it would force children (and parents) to mix with others from different backgrounds and both sides would benefit from that.

Unfortunately once you have 'choice' suddenly its all so much more difficult to choose which school to go to. That's just for the parents nowadays who DO have a choice
(like me) but many, many parents don't have any choice at all.

This is all completely idealistic I realise. I also really think there are some people who really don't want their children educated with the 'great unwashed' and would never, ever subscribe to such a scheme.

(Sorry for the caps, am not shouting but don't know how to do italics)

georgimama · 16/02/2009 14:01

Litchick, I'm perfectly happy to admit that I want my DS to go to the best school I can get him into and will do whatever is necessary, and within my means/power (move/pay/make sure I attend church more regularly*) to achieve it.

And I'm not much bothered about other people's children's educations.

Flame away....

( Note more* regularly - I do go to church sporadically and am a Christian)

bagsforlife · 16/02/2009 14:03

Have just read sinkingfast and think that is a good idea too! Possibly a tiny bit more workable than mine.

TheFallenMadonna · 16/02/2009 14:04

All schools will never be the same. They just won't. And they will never all be equally desirable to all parents. Society and psychology don't, IMO, work like that.

georgimama · 16/02/2009 14:04

I don't see any benefit in social engineering, bagsforlife.

I honestly thought the left had abandoned these aspirations until I started reading the education threads on MN.

KerryMumbles · 16/02/2009 14:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sinkingfast · 16/02/2009 14:05

I read a great article about a school in New York that had done this i.e. split one huge school into 3 on the same site and it was working fantastically well and the children were loving being part of a smaller community. I wish I could remember where I read it so I could link.

georgimama · 16/02/2009 14:11

3 schools in Salisbury (the boy's secondary, the girl's secondary and the mixed secondary) are all in a row and share some facilities. It seems to work very well.