I'm a diehard Leftie but my son is going to private school - Will Self

[Swedes]

Discuss

Ria

Swedes!

I think that link actually helps my case, Swedes. A minority of children went to grammar schools and a tiny minority of them got into Oxbridge.

(Is it wrong of me to be wistful about the fact my father passed the 11+ and went to a 'good' university, while his brother failed, went to a poly and became a teacher, enjoyed arranging exchange trips and became a millionaire after setting up his own travel business?)

I went to state primary school in a village about 35 - 40 year ago and it was very mixed and did me no harm but the Head persuaded my parents to send me to a local very second rate boarding school because the local Cmp was so awful even then. It was very tough financially for them but it undoubtedly made a huge difference to my eductaional outcome.

I send my kids to private Prep school because it is like my village school. I question every day whether it is worth it and why I should have to do it just to get the education I got.

I hate lefties who preach and criticise people who send their kids to private school and then quietly do it themselves or go and buy an incredibly expensive house right next to a top state school.

My parents were the lefties who sacrificed their kids on the altar of their politics (sniff ). We all went to a fairly dire local middle school, followed by a not-v-wonderful high school where we were mildly bullied for being posh and bright. However we all did well thanks to support from home and innate intelligence.

I won't do this for my kids. We have done the catchment area thing and live in a nicer town with a miles better (though still socially mixed) catchment. the sec school isn't great tbh, but my dc won't stand out like sore thumbs in the way we did.

(London is a world apart educationally tho; I am glad we live in the boring provinces as this avoids the soul-searching of Londoners r.e kids' education)

Just look at how mixed the responses are. Our kids are in the catchment for a good school, our kids aren't. That, my friends, IS the problem. We do have a two-tier system - 'it's good enough for me', and 'it's really not'.

By keeping some state schools in good order, about 30% or so (not meant to be brilliantly accurate) of families are satisfied and another 15% fork out for private school, which seems to mean that the rest don't rebel because they can be shouted down by these satisfied types, who are (obviously) among the best-off and most confident. But if you can't afford fees or the leafy suburb move and you aren't lucky with yoru local schools, there is NOTHING you can do to procure a decent education for your dcs.

Education is a money and postcode lottery. And therefore it works unjustly. Individuals going private are unlikley to be able to change things by staying in the miantained sector - hell, even when you are handing over most of your income the school is unlikely to take a blind bit of notice of a word you say.

AbbyLubber - I agree with every word.

I agree especially with your last sentence. It often seems to me that private schools frankly take the pee and are living a cosy world where desperate parents fork out huge sums and the schools have so little competition from the state sector they can just do what they like and ignore their customers.

Like many things in life this recesison/credit crunch is going to teach private schools a harsh lesson.

sassy - I agree! I am so glad that I don't have to consider private. We couldn't afford so I'd feel totally trapped.

Completely agree with AbbyLubber. The education system has become a game those in the know (or with the money) can play to their advantage, ie move to leafy suburb for decent comp, tutor for grammar school, pay for private education.

I am sick to death of all these articles by people who already have a 'choice'. Many people have absolutely no choice whatsoever. They are the ones who deserve a decent education.

(PS Also agree with RiaP, not EVERYONE tutors for GS, but a lot do )

BetaDad, I also totally agreed with your very sensible earlier post. I too ask myself why I have to pay over giant sums and work 70 hours a week for what ought to be every child's right - and once perhaps was?

BTW My DCs are/were at GS so I count myself as someone who has a 'choice'.

This is a really old article isn't it? Thought I saw it yonks ago.

Abby - you have hit the nail on the head.
As long as the middle classes are happy with their schools nothing will ever change for the rest.
I am always astounded on MN that any criticism, real or perceived, of state education is greeted with a barage of defenders that go along the lines of 'my DC's school is fab', 'our school is outstanding.'
Me, me me, I, I, I.
They obviously couldn't give a flying fig about the kids in crap schools.

But why, oh why, are we fighting amongst ourselves?

The anger gets turned against the people (perceived) to be just a bit luckier/higher up/have a bit more "choice" (and I put that in brackets because I'm sure some people, genuinely, really resent the "choice" they felt compelled to make - and there's no point in dismissing that feeling of compulsion) the ladder than ourselves.

It's crazy. Fair enough, analyse the situation that produces such unfairness. But a politics of resentment gets us nowhere. It may be satisfying but it lacks political focus and power and thus any real power to exert change. Moreover, it always preaches a politics of coercion - and surely there's much to be said for the stability of a politics of seduction? In this case, the state sector being attractive?

Schools should be decent, safe places of learning. We pay for them, through our taxes.

It's, surely, time to turn this massive dissatisfaction into a focussed (rather than disparate,) demand for better.

And I'm sorry, but I think the introduction of a lottery system would just be a very big signal that there are big problems with the comprehensive system and we lack the vision to fix it. Think about it; suppose someone seriously suggested introducing Borges' Babylonian Lottery to fix the injustices of the capitalist system. We'd laugh. So why is it OK to do this with our kids?

Fwiw - I really don't know about this "People with kids in good schools don't give a stuff about the rest". I'm seriously not sure that's true.

Point is - how would you know that it is/is not true? There is no public space in which to debate the wider issue of state education at the moment. There are a few, sporadic, articles in the paper; there are local campaigns, mainly about the introduction/non-introduction of academies (and a fair few of the members of those pressure groups will have their dc at "more popular" schools, along with many who do not).

Thing is, what people want from schools varies so widely. But if we don't start discussing this, in a serious, grown-up way, we really are not going to get it.

Agree with bagsforlife about "choice". This really winds me up. Plenty of people may have issues with the state system but can't necessarily buy themselves out, and may not want to either.

Interesting article, except that Tony Blair did not send his children to a private school. The Oratory is a state comprehensive faith school. My BIL went there from a council estate.

The outcry over the Oratory was because it was a grant maintained school, and had opted out of local authority control. At the time Labour opposed this, which is ironic given the multitude of academy schools which exist now.

Unfortunately parents in London and other large cities do face very hard choices.

Agree with bagsforlife too.

cherryblossom, totally agree about not getting at each other. But don't think I agree that what people want is hopelessly diverse. Think most actually want what private schools/grammars offer, but without the fees/snobbery - high academic standards, clean corridors and fewer troublemakers. Maybe others will disagree?

The fact that there IS no serious debate is what I mean by saying too many are content wiht things as they are. I was really thinking of politicians as not thinking anything through, and not Mumsnetters.

I do hope you are right Cherryblossom.
It just seems that any poster saying what they don't like about their local school or state schools in general is greeted with derision and accusations that they no nothing about the system.
As if we can brush under the carpet those schools which are really very, very poor because there are others that are good.
Well, it's nice for those in the later but it doesn't make life any easier for the pupils in the former.
Instead of attacking anyone who chooses private education ought we not to listen to their reasons? Perhaps they are entirely valid.

People tend to conflate theory and practice. It's entirely possible to believe in state education as a principle while not pretending it is perfect. I've found that, if you argue in favour of state education, people tend to assume you are a supporter of everything it currently does, which is just not the case at all.

However, as Will says in his article, the "everyone else" thing does seem a tad hypocritical.

Conversely, UQD, I've found that if you dare to criticise state education people seem to assume you don't support it per se.
Which always seems a little odd to me since we all have a vested interest in state education being the best it can be whether we use it or not. In fact whether we even have children ourselves or not.

Hi, UQD, could you say what you do want from education? Did you disagree with my earlier formulation? This is the kind of thing I think we actually ALL need to discuss, regardless of what sector our DCs are currenlty in.

I think we have a common ground here. I, truly, believe in state education. Blimey - I have to! But I think, even if I didn't have to, I would. And I, genuinely, know people who have taken the non-state route with real remorse. I take their remorse seriously, I don't believe it is hypocritical. And I know a couple of people who are wracked by the fact that their actions leave a situation, that they don't think is acceptable for their dc, in place for other people's dc.

But where do we go to voice this profound dissatisfaction? And what would we say? Where do we even begin thinking about what "solutions" we want that aren't already on offer?

I think it's time for us to get together and create alternative positions. We are way too passive. Eg. UD - your position - pro-state education but critical - what a basic position! And moderate. And sensible. And pretty much nowhere on the public, political landscape.

Thing is, we cannot wait for someone else, some political party, to offer us that position on a plate. We are political adults - we have to create the momentum for that position.

Problem - so much of politics is built around (relatively) stable economic and identity positions. Education is, by its nature, a temporary position. Children grow up and the period of you caring, really caring, about education in this country is, by its nature, very short. Moreover, the potential interest groups are (as posts here show) fractured by the "choices" (huh!) we make for our dc.

We need to make the issue of education more abstract, less particular (about "our" wishes for "our" dc) and be willing to enter into dialogue with others and take their viewpoints seriously.

There's a time-factor in all politics, but even more so in the intrinsically political positions we take with regards to education. At the moment the whole terrain is riven with an appalling short-termism; the need of parents to make an immediate decision regarding their dc's lives, whatever their long-term, more abstract political aspirations might be. And on the state side, a bizarre rush to appease and offer short-term solutions, which often just means trying to curtail access to more popular state options. No wonder that causes resentment.

Ladies (and gentlemen) the revolution has to start somewhere. It can be done. Persuasion and agitation works. People's aims, aspitations and ambitions are not tied and solidified into self-interest and narrow alignment with their economic/social subject-positions. Things can be re-imagined, re-described. It can be done. Otherwise there would be no politics.

Remember: We don't want a slice of the cake - we want the bakery!

Litchick - I so agree with you. Education is an issue for all - even those without children.