MMR doctor 'fixed data'

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article here

IB; i'm not saying "tough luck" to the very few cases where the MMR has resulted in autism, ..what i am saying is the link was never proven...it's a shame that parents still believe it, why?....why put so much faith in a doctor who has basically been shown up for what he is.....a twit.

hecate, did your boys regress? or, as my dd1, did they miss development all the way (I noticed something amiss with dd1 when she was about 7 months old. Mind oyu, she had a right old cocktail of jabs as a newborn)

I understand your confusion. dd1 was autistic before her MMR (and she still had it, as I hadn't read then what I have read now). Her gut issues were also always present.

But I still can't dismiss accounts by mothers who have seen their children regress in front of their eyes in the way daftpunk does.

there are, as we all know, many routes to autism, and I join you in wishing for far more research to help identify some triggers.

Hecate : See, the way I understand it is that for a very small percentage of children the vaccine does not "cause" their autism, they are not "infected" in some sinister way by the MMR; rather, it triggers it, in the same way that other endogenous and exogenous factors may "trigger" the underlying predisposition in non-vaccinated children. Autism is so poorly understood; but it does not seem impossible to me that a very small percentage of children may be affected by the vaccine.

Again, I reiterate: this is not an argument against vaccination; rather an argument for better autism research.

but daftpunk, the link ahs never been proven because the study has never been replicated (you have to ask why that is - what are they scaredof finding?)

And, for the record, Wakefield's research still stands - it has been labelled as good science by the prosecution in the GMC trial.

silverfrog;

if that was the case the MMR would have been banned.

Silver - ds2 regressed. He went from being a sunny, friendly, interactive little chap, to much more like ds1 - who was always in his own world.

In fact, it was the difference between ds1 and 2 that made us realise ds1 had a problem, and he was diagnosed at 2.5! When ds2 was diagnosed at aged 3 we were shocked! but the eye contact went, the desire to interact went - all the things ds1 never had from the start!

So 2 very different presentations.

As a point of debate, many, many scientific hypotheses and theories are "unproven": but that doesn't mean they don't provide a good working model or that at some point in the future - as the science & technology develop - they won't be proven. To reject the (presently) unprovable would be to reject a very wide body of human knowledge as unusable. This is clearly wrong.

ok so maybe(of course I don't know) be a link.
but if people don't have their children vaccinated, the there will be and outbreak of measles, and a lot of children will die or be damaged in some way.
that has been proven.

i hear you pagwatch

Penthesilea your first post was brilliant. Totally agree.

daftpunk, if what was the case? that the paper was labelled as good science by a witness (for the prosecution) at the GMC trial?

well, in that case, I await the news of the ban.

because it was.

Peanuts are not a banned substance.

Yet many people are dangerously allergic to them.

It is not always the case that the government/NHS is compelled to ban something because a few people are allergic, etc., to it.

Penicillin is deadly for some; again, it is widely in use because most people benefit from it. Some will die on the operating table because of an undiagnosed allergy.

To argue that MMR is not banned and that this somehow proves that it does not trigger (rather than cause or infect, I repeat) autism in a tiny percentage is not a good argument.

What's the theory on how the MMR might trigger autism?

Penthesileia i really couldn't have put it better myself!

As I understand it, there is some indication or suggestion that there is a connection between disorders of the gut (which are hypothosized to be linked to the MMR vaccine, particularly the measles virus/vaccine, I seem to remember) and developmental disorders/regression/delay in certain children - the brain/gut axis.

2shoes not necessarily

herd immunity requires a base level of children to be vaccinated, not necessarily all- for examle if all the children in your dc's classes were vaqccinated then your child is protected as they can't pass it on. So if only children at risk of ASD were not vaccinated herd immunity could still be maintained (there's a lot of dispute about herd immunity and percentages vary but most stuff I read suggests about 80% vaccinated children leads to herd immunity).

Herd immunity itself is a disputed conceopt on MN and there's lots of other stuff- for example in the most recent outbreak of measles here the majority of children (vast mjority( had been vaccinated- so pushing illnesses such as mumps and rubella into more worrying age ranges (adolecscents / ypung poeple- mumps damage in males and rubella in pregnant females). There's a wide thought that MMR protection doesn't last as long as people think.

And even if you do think vaccination is essential- there's always the single jabs as we have chosen (as we do believe in vaccination). The trouble is theya re only available privately so, especially in the current climate, people will increasingly be forced into none rather than singles due to cost.

As for the ASD thing- no, nobody knows for sure but the idea is that ASD is often (not always- lots to be learned) a genetic thing that requires a 'trigger' to start it; MMR may be one of those triggers for a few children.

2shoes (again sorry LOL)
this copy and asted info from A pro immunisation site shows that in the UK damage from measles isn't a lot of children, it's fairly rare:
What are possible complications from measles?
Diarrhea is the most common complication of
measles (occurring in 8% of cases), especially in
young children. Ear infections occur in 7% of reported
cases. Pneumonia, occurring in 6% of reported
cases, accounts for 60% of measles-related
deaths. Approximately one out of one thousand
cases will develop acute encephalitis, an inflammation
of the brain. This serious complication can lead
to permanent brain damage.
Measles during pregnancy increases the risk of premature
labor, miscarriage, and low-birth-weight infants,
although birth defects have not been linked to
measles exposure.
Measles can be especially severe in persons with
compromised immune systems. Measles is more severe
in malnourished children, particularly those
with vitamin A deficiency.

Whereas ASD is currently above 1% of the population.

Now there's no proven in my mind but with figures such as 1% there ahs to be research. As long as the Government doesn't instugate it then it will look dubious, if any lifelong disability affected people at that rate the reaction would be immediate and vast.

Peachy interesting.although I disagree with your last line. the goverment won't ever do anything(look at tony blair who whould never say if his child had had the mmr) even if it is proven. look how many babys are damaged due to negilence by hospitas(an had it proven) but the goverment do nothing to stop it(had to get that in lol)(thanks for answering me)

TBH I, I repeat I would never rely on herd immunity.

Peachy
Dh always makes the same point. If 30 year old men were regressing instead of 2- 3 year old children the world would go fucking nuts to find out what was happening.

Oh I agree the Gov won't do anything- and if it turns out MMR is causing some asd there will be cases of lost notes compensation, and therefore its the money they are worried about.

America is moving on this though, which is where most asd developments happen.

Oh God, I wish I understood any of this. DD is due to have her MMR on Wednesday. I took no notice when all the fuss kicked off as I was child-free. I always thought I'd just have DD vaccinated with no problem but you don't realise how you'll feel when it's your own child. Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm just confused and thinking out loud.

Eyeballs fwiw remember that many of us on here have ASD kids already so are emotive and probably no more unbiased than most of us think the Government are

If you search for threads on this by JimJams / Yurtgirl / jimjamshaslefttheyurt you will find lots of information by someone who really knows her science, well worth a look.

Peachy class - that works!

Eyeballs, sympathy. It is a deep and complicated subject, and everyone has to come to their own conclusions on it.

If you would like to read more, I have Richard Halvorsen's book "the Truth About Vaccines", and i could drop it round to you (we are in the same area, as we chatted on the snow threads).

It is an interesting read, which sums up soem of the issues and risks, and highlights when you might want to read up a bit more.

Halvorsen is an NHS doctor who offers singles as well as the MMR.