Let's get this right: Israel, not Hamas, started the war in Gaza

[sherazade]

Israel broke the four month ceasefire in november 2008 after a raid into the territory which killed six member of hamas.

Hamas responded with the rockets.

Prior to this, Gaza's people has been subject to an almost 2 year long siege involving harsh sanctions against its people which has resulted in appalling life conditions. According to Ann short a ridiculously high percentagte of Gazan children are 'malnourished' because of the siege.

Hamas is asking for the siege to be lifted.
Hamas is not a terrorist organisaiton. It is a democratically (first fair elections in the middle east) elected polticial party made up of highly qualified and educated doctors, lawyers, and engineers and is amongst the most highly educated governing body in the world with over 500 phD's between its members. It is certainly not 'misogynistic', with many women amongst it upper ranks.

It was hamas' internal, not foreign, policy which got them elected.

Now with almost a thousand innocents dead, the lack of compassion on this forum has sickened me beyond belief.

This is a sad, sad, world we live in.

I just wonder how many generations will it take for the jews to stop assuming sole exclusivity in the victim stakes.... it's as though they are the ONLY people who have ever suffered, and that their suffering is worse than anyone elses.

I fear there are many more generations to run. Meanwhile, Gaza incursions and the like (ref: S. Lebanon, etc...) will succeed in producing generations of disaffected young (and then old) muslims whose only raison d'etre will be revenge of some sort. Certainly for the palestinians in Gaza, with all the checkpoints and restrictions on daily life, there appears to be very little else to live for.

And re: Obama.... there are a lot of people hoping that he might be able to make a change, but I'm afraid that the oh so powerful jewish lobby in the US will not allow too much of a pro-Arab stance. At least in this country there are jews and jewish bodies who feel able to criticise Israel's actions without being labelled anti seminitic or self hating, but I don't think that'ss really the case in the US...

Many in Hamas aren't calling for the removal of the Israeli state, many are calling for a return to the 1967 borders. To me that seems the most obvious solution. No doubt there are those who'll disagree with me.

this shows how the borders have moved I for one think a return to the 1967 borders seems a decent compromise but maybe I'm missing something as to why that's not acceptable to many in Hamas.

Headfairy, I think you may be missing the fact that Hamas's official policy is the end of the state of Israel altogether, not reduced boundaries.

In addition to calling for the end of the state of Israel Hamas leaders have also called for the killing of Jews, including Jewish children, worldwide.

And while the poor people of Gaza are being bombed by Israel, the leader of Hamas is in Damascus well away from danger. Seems somewhat cowardly to me.... surely a leader should be standing alongside his people at a time like this?

Oh, and for those of you who have suggested that all Israelis should leave Israel, do you realise that this doesn't sound too dissimilar to what the BNP would like to do in Britain should they ever get into power...

"I just wonder how many generations will it take for the jews to stop assuming sole exclusivity in the victim stakes"

Yeah, Oragina. I kind of think that the Israelis are refusing to accept victim status anymore.

Hence their aggression to the Arab states over the years which, amid all their squabbles, are pretty much united in their hatred of Israel and Jews.

khaled mishaal ''hamas leader'' lives in syria because he has been EXILED, not through choice!. I wish people would stop making things up.

And yes, they (hamas) want to return to the borders of 1967. They want israel to stop the aggressiona and lift the siege of gaza.
Also, winkywola, what exactly do you mean by 'aggression to the arab states''. ? Israel has recognition in most of the arab world and there hasn't been any aggression launched against any 'state'. Israel targets unarmed civillians, women and children. Israel is punishing the palestinians for electing hamas and that is why it is using th emost brutal weaponry known to cause mass death and destruction. You talk about palestine and people stifly the debate by talking about holocause survival/jewish suffering and anti semitism. and that hamas uses human shields which is another lie. support for hamas in the arab world and especially amongst gazans has steeply increased since the war on gaza. Gaza is so overpopulated, so crowded, it would be impossible to seperate hamas , the legit. government, from its people. other than that, the israeli's are cowards who are killing civllians out of desperation because they cannot and will never ever crush hamas.rockets are still being fired- they have not managed to stop it or slow it down or deter hamas. they have only managed to kill a thousand innocents, the blood of which will haunt the israeli occupation forever.

by the way , elfrida, it is the problem of the newsreporters that women are not being interviewed and shown.. believe me, the palestinian women ARE NOT SILENT on this issue. the pro zionist media has perhaps tried to silence them for they tell the most incriminating stories.

however, if you watch aljazeera, you will see woman after woman, child after child, recounting their invidiual losses and tragedies in front of the camera. aljazeera certainly does not overlook the suffering of mothers, daughters, women in all walks of life. I have contacts in gaza that i have been speaking to ,as and when i get a connection , from an arab website that has published numbers of families that are looking for some kind of support, and they are usually women answering the phones.

An article on media coverage of the war here if you are interested
english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/20091585448204690.html

Regarding the "bit in the bible that says that God gave them that land" does Israel actually use that as any kind of justification?

I'm interested since it would be a poor argument and you wouldn't think they'd want people reminded about that. I've read the bible including the bits they skip over in sunday school. Where 'god' says that land will do nicely. Slaughter everyone there to make room for your people.

err, that is their only justification.
The big israeli cities as we know them now were all home to palestinian settlements, homes, schools, communities, before israel took over just 'coz the torah said they could have it.

With reference to your OP, Hitler was also democratically elected.

Anyways, sorry, but I couldn't give a shit, because it's nowt to do with me, and the likes of me will never solve it.

Nor the likes of you, come to that.

Erm I thought you didn't like it when people 'made things up'?!?! It's not actually true to say that 'Israel took over just 'coz the Torah said they could have it'. If you can be bothered to become well informed (rather than just reading biased pro palestinian websites) you'll find that it was actually a UN ruling that originally created the state of Israel. For a full history see here

Anyone seen this?
www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php

The UN gave it to them... ah so that justifies /explains everything.

Well yes the UN gave it them. I think that makes the UN a thief and Israel a receiver of stolen property. Though it's a bit late now to simply say give it back. You do if someone steals a car and gives it to you.

I was wondering though if the Israel of today uses the Bible/Torah as excuse

Give it up, shez. You sound like an anti-semite.

Where would you like the Israeli's to go?

What interests me is that you want to condemn Israel without bothering to understand the background and I'm shocked that no one has responded to the point I made earlier about Hamas calling for the worldwide slaughter of Jews, including Jewish children. Surely you don't agree with this??

And re the point in the OP about Hamas leaders being well educated, the leader of the BNP is an Oxford educated lawyer but that doesn't stop him being a right wing lunatic who you wouldn't want in a position of power!

Yep, and the guys who tried to blow up Glasgow airport were doctors.

It's a poor enough argument.

Israel don't use or need any excuses, because nobody dares to ask what they are doing there, and how legitimate their existence as a state this, a nice example would be this forum where you question the legitimacy of the state (sorry but i have read about it from a wide variety of sources over and over again and i simply cannot understand how you can take over someone elses land based on religious justifications and the fact that you do not have your own land) and you get people accusing you of racism, anti semitism, and reminding you about the holocaust.

speaking of racism, some nice quotes for you:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

i'm anti semitic? stifles a yawn.

"they have only managed to kill a thousand innocents, the blood of which will haunt the israeli occupation forever."

You're absolutely right, Onager.

It's been a big mistake this campaign. I agree about that not least because of the terrible impact on innocent civilians.

And also not least because of the terrible effect on any future peace in the region. It feels like any attempts at negotiation are like trying to reason my three year old DS out of belting his friends.

But I can also never condone Hamas and their dedication to hatred of the Jews. And I cannot believe Hamas put their own people first. I believe they put their hatred first. And Israel has played into their hands by this incursion.

Sherazade - yet another post from you where you refuse to condemn the comments made by the leader of Hamas