Domestic Abuse and Care Proceedings - the AWR case (another mum on the run)

[johnhemming]

Hopefully this won't happen to any of the readers, but another mum on the run story has been publicised in the Sunday Telegraph

Here
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3868100/Mother-flees-abroad-with-her-son-to -escape-social-workers.html

I have put additional information on my weblog here
johnhemming.blogspot.com/2008/12/arw-mum-on-run-with-her-children.html

This is a case which will interest anyone who is looking at how to contest Hague Convention proceedings in public family law.

I know of two cases like this. The other one has been publicised in The Times, but I cannot find it at the moment.

Camilla Cavendish has also written about DV/DA and Care proceedings
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/camilla_cavendish/article5050750.ece

N1, johnhemming, I am shocked that a lay advisor can be the difference in persuading the court against breaking up a family, despite so-called independent representation that the parents are legally entitled to in court. Johnhemming, thank you for your efforts as a lay advisor in this area. it is truly a breach of human rights that family court proceedings do not afford parents an adequate voice in family court proceedings for all the reasons described.

Controlfreaky, scummymummy, afaik, you are either social workers or have working experience of the child protection system. You primarily focused on the bland report and give your opinion on how it justifies removing the child from the family.

But what about the way in which the report was put together and the high handed way social services may have conducted themselves in relation to the family? What about the way family proceedings are conducted where families are disempowered even with legal representation, such that it takes a lay advisor to make a difference?

What do you have to say about the heartrending stories of bluesapphire, AWR, tuttyfrutty, twinset and others about SS and the way in which child protection works in reality. Are you going to say that all of them are one-off cases and you do not comment on details you cannot possibly know?

Is the overall child protection system perfect or even adequate in your view. What specific improvements and shortfalls do YOU recommend, beyond more funding. None?

I am very interested to know. I would rather believe that SS is doing a good enough (I don't expect perfection in this fraught area) job than to hear case after case of where social service, family courts and the foster case system have failed children.

Why is it that if "the general view of conspiracy and miscarriages of justice etc does not mirror my lengthy experience" (controlfreaky), and if SS does its job, say 80% of the time (figure out the air), where are the people coming on this thread to say what a good job SS have done for them?

Something does not add up for me.

YOURTGIRL, I have my son that was incare with me (because i abducted him out of care), i have my one year old who is not part of proceedings because the UK have no legal juristiction as he wasnt born there.

As for my eldest son who is 13 i have not seen him for over 2 years and it hurts alot.
This is due to having to give him up to his father (previous 6 year relationship) where i had to give him a temporary residency order to 'save' him from social services.
Unfortuantely the ex's girlfriend has it in for me (long story involves jealously about my relationship with the ex) and when social services took my 2nd son into care they moved and refused to give any forwarding address or telephone numbers for me or my family.
Whether my ex was frightened by social services or the fact that his girlfriend wanted me out of their lives made him cut contact i dont know...
All i can say is that my eldest has now insisted on contacting his grandma (my mother) and they are hoping to meet up soon.
Im sure that until my case is over with i will not beable to see him, so yes social services and the court system has fragmented my family beyond belief.

BlueSaffhire77 we have experienced EXACTLY the same thing its uncanny to those who have never been on 'our side of the fence' but i know of other peoples cases whom i have been trying to help over the years and its the same for everyone.
Unfortunately social services in the UK tar everyone with the same brush,you are treated like scum,spoken down to like a child and made to grovel like a dog to see or get your children back.
Its barbaric and an abuse of power by control freaks who think they know best and when they realise its not for the best they carry on abusing their power because quite simply they are getting paid to do it or would be sacked if they spoke up about it.

cf what you said was:

what i dont accept however is the picture painted of widespread corruption
This implies an acceptance that there is corruption, but not widespread. You still have not denied that there is any corruption even in your later statement.

Quite ironic though that the legal who writes here and claims to be involved in child protection court proceedings is called
controlfreakyhohohohohohoho

Sorry just my experience...

Some excellent posts from bluesapphire on a parallel thread that I thought should be on here as well:

bluesapphire: "I have had dealings with them in the past ( i am on that thread also) and have seen the crap they have doled out to other people and myself, however, i have also had recent involvement and have found a shift in their modus operandi for slightly the better.. unfortunately the OP cannot go up to these people and explain and offer help, she does not feel in that sort of position obviously..
At the end of the day this child must come first, i understand the OP proceeding with caution, and i also understand the frustration of those who think a terrible crime is taking place, which any kind of child abuse clearly is, it is a damn shame there is no happy medium where say, the OP could contact an organisation that will pop round to check on the child, assess the needs and and failings within the family and any support that may be offered, be supportive and caring, TELL the parents their behaviour is impacting on their child and how, also how they may parent more effectively, point out the effect their actions have on the child, make sure the parents know what they are currently doing is unacceptable and if it continued, the consequences that could arise..without being heavy handed...the list goes on.
Oh...isn't that what the social services are supposed to do? "

oh and scummymummy a social worker

Just my experience again..the social workers i have met look like they have just walked out of a 'free love' 70's demonstration

More from bluesapphire. Controlfreaky, scummymummy and others working in the area of child protection, please feel free to comment:

bluesapphire:

"Despite everything i personally feel sorry for the SS in a way.

Yes, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
How are they to tell if a parent just needs guidance or if that same parent is capable of killing their own child..
Take the child, don't take the child.. heavy handed, not heavy handed enough. I do not envy their job.

However, the fact remains that they do hit easy targets and waste a lot of money that could theoretically be better spend on a support network or service.

They have earned their own bad name by readily removing easily adoptable children/babies, and leaving REAL children in need to suffer at the hands of abusers..one i know didn't visit a child because she was afraid of the family dog.. WHAT?? Fortunately the family was not high risk but they could have been doing anything to the little one and she (SW) would have been none the wiser.
They need back up in situations such as this, to visit families they would normally be afraid to visit, they need services to which they can refer low risk families rather than having to kick off a child protection case, they need better supervisors/team leaders. They need to have a bloody radical overhaul of the view that they are all middle class snotty cows on a power trip. They need longer than they currently get to do assessments, currently it is too rushed, they do not get to know the family properly, then are expected to make a judgement call based on probably three visits, if that, one or two of which are likely to have been strained or confrontational due to the vision/perspective everyone has of the SS, they are as i have said before, a frightening entity, and anyone feeling threatened with the loss of their children is capable of reacting angrily, it takes quite a few visits before they realise that may not be the case, by then though the mould is set, the SW has to make a decision, courts, solicitors, anger, worry, fear, confrontation...maybe removal of children, suspicion of the very people who are the only ones who may be able to help..

Where is this supposed to be good for a child, or in the interests of the child, or in the hope of working together??

I have often said if child abusers of any kind but especially sexual abusers, given that this breed of abuser is the one i have had most experience of, had somewhere safe to go and admit they have feelings towards kids, and get treatment and therapy BEFORE they acted on their feelings, a place where they would not be condemned or judged, there would be a better outcome for the potential abuser and any children saved from him/her that otherwise would have had their lives devestated, and their families as well.

So programmes began in certain areas with this in mind.

What on earth is wrong with the idea of extending this to parents??
I have often wished i could go to someone and say 'i don't want to do this with my kids, but this is the way i was brought up, so i don't know how to do it differently'
Without someone coming the arse and saying 'only you can make that decision' ... i mean PRACTICAL advice and support to make that change.

Some parents need guidance and support to improve their kids lives, not to be put through hell on earth that is care proceedings.
Help and support the parents, you make the childs life better. I am not implying they must put the parents first, by any means, the parents must be made to understand the consequences of continuing to mistreat the child, but be given the opportunity to change. Most people would jump through fiery hoops given the opportunity to put right what they may not have even viewed as wrong.. I suppose there will always be some that are just pure evil and would do serious harm to their kids with or without help, these few deserve to lose the precious gifts they have more commonly known as children..but i maintain that i believe these twisted few are few and far between. Most are simply misguided and had bad role models in their own caregivers."

Note not one of them has owt to say about my story lol

I will tell the truth that is my problem and have always been very open regardless of the consequences.

However, please note that social workers are human (just about) and this is also a support forum where it would be nice to have objective opinions, no them and us stuff going on.. their views are as valid as any other person posting on here..do not want to fall into the trap we have all been in..of gagging or of being gagged..and jumped up and down on with a vengeance by those who have more power or better knowledge of the system than we do.

In order to bring about change it is vital not to represent ourselves as a group of people who just will not take on board anothers opinion just because it does not match our own..

Also important to remember that some SW's are as pissed off with the situation as parents and service users are, just they are not free to voice this as we are, because they have their job to consider. The SW that came to do the new baby assessment went away hopefully pleasantly surprised that i wasn't the cunt i had obviously been described as (sorry, CHALLENGING) lol and i believe, and told her, this was because no one had come at me threatening to take baby, i had done enough rounds with them to be bothered, and do you know, she ended up confiding things to me that she was not happy with about the system..
I gave her a letter signed by myself that i understood sec 47 had been instigated, i was willing to co-operate, and that i wished to ignore the timescale and hoped the SS would too.. 'To put less pressure on the supervising SW to find out about my family in such a short space of time'
She told me it was a brilliant idea but that it is law that the assessment should be concluded within that timescale, however, we came to our own agreement to stick two fingers up at it, only possible because baby isn't born yet.

How ridiculous. Heavy caseloads mean these people cannot do their jobs effectively.
I used to be totally unsympathetic but now have a greater understanding and maybe a little bit of grudging respect for my former adversaries.
With the exception of THAT evil lying bitch who thankfully is now not a SW any more.

Social workers in child protection don't seem to make any decisions, their manager makes all the decisions and the social worker carries out instructions from the manager.

If child protection wants a better class of social worker. (in my opinion) all social workers working in the child protection field should have no less than 2 of their own children and ideally be married. I would think the same should apply to any solicitor or barrister on the children's panel. I accept that this might be classed as some sort of discrimination, but the fairness of the issue is that one parent is better equipped to make decisions after being a parent themselves.

N1.. SS have some great SW's.. but they are ridden over roughshod if they dare to be sympathetic or .. god forbid.. supportive.

The best ones all move on as well 'sob sob'

The problem for parents is the same as for kids with loads of placements.. you just get to almost like/be able to work with a SW, and zoooooop they're gone.. and you have another one come along who you have to explain your story to, and they read the paperwork, there is no consistency..plus we must not forget that every new SW, means a new face AGAIN for the child, no stability or consistency of care. How do kids in care trust these workers when the changes are so frequent? The one face in all of it that doesn't change is your mum and / or dads, and you can't just say 'eff you, i'm going home' because you are trapped by the court system and adults that say they listen to you and don't. Or they do listen, but nothing happens. How many children must feel the despair my DD has over the years?

Her true feelings come out every now and again.. and i quote "M.. (my son) has a mum, i don't, i mean i have a mum, but he lives with you and sees you every day, and can talk to you about stuff, he knows what you look like in the morning, what your fave colour is, what you like to eat, he can come and get a cuddle from you any time he likes. Over the time i have been in care i have wanted a cuddle from you and couldn't because i am here and you aren't. I wonder if i know you. I wonder if you love me as much as M because you don't see me as much. FC is ok, but there are things i can't expect from her like i could from you. I don't feel loved by anyone else except you, and i don't ever want a cuddle from any one else but you. But you are not there mum."

How does one respond to a statement like that from a 14 year old girl?

There is/was a 12 year old child in the South somewhere who ran home that many times, that the appeal court Judge sent the child home. On one of the run away trips home, the child put their own application in at court to discharge the care order (that got to a Judge - not sure which Judge though).

The Guardian in that case asked to be discharged and no other guardian was appointed.

The Judge who messed the family up still dealt with the case and saw the case through to the good ending that the case got.

Tell R to put her own application into court (to discharge the care order).

She's in the process unfortunately she is in year 10 at school and a move home without support from the SS to get her to school may damage her chances of doing well at school. What parent would condemn a child to this? Of course the SS have said that i am putting up barriers to her return home, but i am of the opinion i am doing what a parent does best.. thinking about the child above their own needs or wishes..
Think King Solomon and the two mothers.
Rather than cut the baby in half, the true mother would rather it be given to the other woman who was not its mother.
This is true love a parent has for its child and is uncompromising and unconditional.
What if i said yeah don't worry about her future return her to me blah blah i'm sure they would have something to say about that as well.

What is it they are so fond of saying?

Damned if i do and damned if i don't.

I'm so sorry for you and your daughter (and ds), BlueSapphire, must be un-bloody-bearable.

Thanks hun

For a while, it was. For some people it still is, and fresh blood being drawn every day.

Came off here turned on tv to hear about a 20 month old lad killed by his mum and stepdad apparently, well, they have been arrested in any case. How terrible.

Might hear more about it tmoz i suppose.

As for my own situation, i had to draw the line somewhere so we could all move on and regain some dignity and sanity. Yes its still horrible, and unbearable especially over xmas, but now the SS are chasing ME to have more contact rather than me chasing them saying contact level is unacceptable, now it is a waiting game till DD comes out of care and we can then begin to kick teeth down throats re the abuse and being kept from her family, i have kept extensive records, if she wants to make use of them, it may be she just wants to forget about all of it, so its up to her. In the meantime, my DP has filled in a CRB check form so my DD can stay overnight and have contact with the baby when he's born, we gave that to the FC, but she says the SW is a waste of space and hasn't bothered to see DD or collect the form, DD is having a proper fit, like DD like mother lol..and the FC has complained about the SW not doing her job properly and i had a mega whinge as well so now in for another change of SW.
Sigh.
I think we were spoilt by last SW being a bit of a wimp but very nice and no matter what, if you phoned him, he would always get back to you the same day with an answer or an explaination and a promise of an answer. I like male SW's btw they seem a lot better to deal with.

I cried when i found out this one was leaving

I bet the next one is just as much of a tosspot as the one we have now. Shame you can't vet them and pick your own lol.

BTW i did say to DD that she would rather not see what i looked like in the morning, it would put her off for life lol..

Would like to ask, as there are SW's and others in the child protection field posting, what their opinion is on anything they would like to see changed or reviewed about the current system, aside from more adequate funding, which we all recognise as totally crap atm we all have different views, i for example think there is enough money available but it is being misdirected.
I believe a reward system for SW's who manage to keep families together would be a good start..your views please?

The use of ring fencing for money so that it can be borrowed by differnt projects by the LA's would make a difference. Social workers to be given more time with families to get to know them, managers who can manage thei time better so they don't need a week to ok a s47 report which infact gives 30 days to complete, a better understanding that assessment is on going and better facilities to up date assessments. I don't know if rewrds would work as it may lead to families being kpt together inappropriately. An understanding by families that SW is there to help and that they need to be honest from the outset, sometimes information found out from othe sources could have been metioned by families this then means the sw has to find out why the discrepoency happenned and it canappear families woth nothing to hide have,

I understand what you say about rewards but it would be more reassuring for the service users, a reward for keeping them together would be seen as an incentive and also, if you are not the family/parents from hell then you would know if a sw could keep you together they will.

No SW worth their salt would keep an unsuitable family together for ANY reward do you not think?

At the moment the rewards for splitting families are high and the spoils of 'war' are also high, as is the SS chance of winning, so they have nothing to lose.

This is what is so frightening about them, plus the fact that they constantly move the goalposts to get your kids back, "You have to do this" "Right. Now you have to do that"

Toally unfair and loaded in the SSD's favour.

I think the timescale for Sec 47 investigation is crap on one hand, i suppose on the other it means that families will know one way or the other when it has ended, thats the only positive to having a time limit, nothing worse than something being ongoing and going and going....and going.

And not like the SS are particularly good at communication or letting you know whats going on or whether they have finished with your dead carcass or whatever...

bluesapphire that's what I mean s47 is an assessment of that period of time it does not easily allow for changes to be acknowledged. There should be a better review machinism. I don't feel the rewads of splitting families up are high but i understand why you feel that way. I think it is the communication thing that is the biggest problem sometimes sw work on one issue and the move on to another which can look as if the goal posts have moved alternatively something else happens with another case or there is a review else where which shifts the emphasis so therefore work on that needs to be completed to helpkeep the family together. It is not helped by the fact that all families are inviduals as are sw managers and cafcass and each have their own expectations and way of working, the system needs to become more clear cut as to what will happen and the timescales and sw's need the time to spend with families and to properly prepare and record

I find it so hard reading some of these stories as I just can't get my head round how some aspects of ss and more specifically childrens services have not changed its mentality since the dark ages and this is what we have protecting our children.

My own experience with ss is nothing in comparison to some on here but when I was about 10, my brother who was 8 was an absolute handful and whilst threatening my other younger brother (only 18mths at this point) my step dad went to hit him round the arm, my brtoher ducked and got a black eye. My mum took him to hospital to get him checked out and obv they informed ss. Before we knew it we were all on the at risk register and ss were called in to determine whether or not we should be fostered out. I remember being taken out of class at school and taken to the medical room where I was stripped, weighed and measured and told I was very small for my age, did my mum feed me properly and alsorts of hideous questions aboutt hings that just weren't true. I was beside myself and in the end quite rude to them. Both my parents aar no taller than 5' 2" so I was never gonna be a giant. I remember being terrified that I was going to be snatched from my bed in the middle of the night. My mum had no idea that we were going to be reviewed like that and she was mad that they had done it without permission but ss simply told her "we're ss we don't need your permission". In the end it was a very good hv that fought the case and got ss off our back but it took me a long time until I trusted adults around as I worried that anything I said could be mistrued and we end up in the same situation. And that's what bothers me, the very people that are there to help protect children and ensure they are living in healthy environments etc, are the very people that many children are terrified of and ss do sometimes do this to themselves and simply don't care.

In balance though, I do think that there are social workers who are trying to do the right thing and are fighting a losing battle. It's not a job I think I could cope with personally.

As for corruption and collusion, it would never surprise me if that kind of thing was going on. I think people forget it wasn't that long ago that ss was not as strictly governed as it is today and that many of the instiutions it worked in and with were being run and policed by the very people the kids were being abused by. It takes a lot more than a few rules and regulation to truly neutralise the decades of 'we're a law unto ourselves' culture.

Hi gothicmama

The high rewards to which i refer are mainly monetary reward on the part of the legal reps, but also there is a dark nasty side to this.. it is called forced adoption and most families picked on funnily enough have babies of suitable adoption age.. At one time, single mums left right and centre handed over their babies or had them forcibly taken because of the 'single parent stigma' now that isn't a problem any more the SS have to find new ways to procure the children needed to give to barren old cows with just that little bit more money or a 'better' standard of living.

I have no personal experience of this but some people i know have, enough for me to know these people were targeted for their babies, not because they were bad parents... "Hmm, a new baby" means that the baby is then seen with greedy eyes with pound signs in and then the cogs start turning and do not stop until that baby is in care and fast tracked for adoption, the parents? ... They have their characters torn to shreds because there is no way of proving the SS wrong.

There is a sickening baby trade going on in this country..it is well hidden...

Sorry, must also point out what i mean about goalposts being moved.

Going home pack your stuff..sorry, not going home.

Mum must move to a new area away from the home the DD was sexually abused in in order to get her DD back.."Move" ..Sorry, you have moved away from the area you have family and friends in, thus losing your support network, you have also moved away from DD's school which is a source of stability for the child, you can't have DD back..what do you mean, we told you you had to move? (Innocent faces) No we didn't..Oh, you have proof on paper, oh, oh, well (fluff) next topic...

All you have to do is agree to the care order being granted on the basis of emotional neglect due to you being depressed about DD's abuse at the hands of (family member babysitter) and we will return her home under a care order as soon as we have the guardian ad litem out of the picture because she is the one who is disputing the return home, if you agree to CO, the case will be closed and she will then be dispensed with, and we can make the decision to return R home.
All you have to do is admit to emotionally neglecting DD's needs and we will provide a support package and return her home with support from specialist sexual abuse counsellor.

LIARS. They are liars and cheats and not only that, when ever i say anything about their actions at the time, they say, and frequently put in statements, that i agreed to the care order...fuck my pleas or explainations of why i did it, ect, and it makes me look a right twat. I TRUSTED them. Bad idea.

And there are people out there that hit their kids, pull their hair, don't feed them, burn them with fags, let them play amongst dirty needles, and still keep their kids, it's soul destroying and infuriating.

Rant over, i still show willing to work with these people. I must be mental.

Nothing really upsets mothers so much (or indeed fathers) as thinking about other cases when children are not allowed contact with one or other parent so these are very emotive issues. I accept some parents are really so very dire they need the child removed. A boy recently as a young adult sued for the first time the local authority for damages - they returned him again and again and again despite his many complaints about what his parents were doing to him at home BUT there are far too many other cases where on a pretext or because of some half baked psychological theory and because of enforcement by people who really often aren't that clever but ticking boxes and following systems, ensuring process if fulfilled rather than the morally right thing done, children are removed when support at home would be a better option.

The message from the thread is never ever go anywhere near the authorities about a child issue and if it fall down the stairs and you go to A&E or even if you lose your temper once with it as I expect most parents have done, you risk losing it if information on that gets out to anyone with a grudge against you.

I was reading about a mass large group of children in the US taken away from their parents last night and the abuse they suffered at the hand of "child protection" authorities. Heart rending stuff. One group I think of very experienced volunteers who were helping wrote very favourable reports - these mothers are great with children, they know more about bringing up children well than the teachers in their classes on childcare etc etc The volunteers were sacked. Their story didn't fit the story of those CPS officers in charge.

Xenia, in view of the deafening silence from social workers on this thread, i can only assume they are indifferent to the very real injustices and extremely thought provoking improvements suggested to child protection procedures raised on this thread. Does not inspire confidence, does it?

I naively assumed that social services acted in good faith even if they might be somewhat ineffectual due to heavy caseloads and working in difficult cirsumstances. Now I am beginning to form the opinion that they can be a petty malevolent force and god forbid if I tried to question them.

I will stay the heck out of their way at all costs. I wish things weren't like this, not the least for all the vulnerable children they are paid to protect.

blushoes, I have met scummymummy and I can vouch that she is a very nice person!
However, the social worker who started the mischief for us in germany, can best be described as a "malevolent force." She seems to have her own agenda, which has little to do with reality, and to want to force it on families at all costs.
Since we had our bad experience with her, I have asked around, and come up with 2 similar stories where she has lied to other families to make them do something that she wanted them to do.
Unfortunately, because she is a social worker, she can make a lot of trouble for families, and as has already been commented further down this thread, once a malicious, lying story has been started in the files of the SS, it is FAR harder to stop it.

It is this kind of social worker that scares me. I know they are not all like this, but enough are, to be scary.

I knew a lot of trainee social workers when I was a student, and they weren't the sort to inspire confidence, tbh. They all seemed to have considerable problems in their own lives. In one way, this gave them empathy with people who were suffering, but in another way, they seemed not to be able to distinguish weirdness from normality. Very subjective generalisation there I know, what I mean is, that they would look for the weird explanation to everything.