Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Domestic Abuse and Care Proceedings - the AWR case (another mum on the run)

319 replies

johnhemming · 21/12/2008 18:52

Hopefully this won't happen to any of the readers, but another mum on the run story has been publicised in the Sunday Telegraph

Here
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3868100/Mother-flees-abroad-with-her-son-to -escape-social-workers.html

I have put additional information on my weblog here
johnhemming.blogspot.com/2008/12/arw-mum-on-run-with-her-children.html

This is a case which will interest anyone who is looking at how to contest Hague Convention proceedings in public family law.

I know of two cases like this. The other one has been publicised in The Times, but I cannot find it at the moment.

Camilla Cavendish has also written about DV/DA and Care proceedings
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/camilla_cavendish/article5050750.ece

OP posts:
Nighbynight · 03/01/2009 23:41

controlfreaky, I genuinely do believe that you mean well, and that you are doing your best.
however, things arent always done by the book, thats the problem.

something - it isnt clear what yet - has been started against me. I believe, that the allegation is that I caused my ds's long-running abscess.
Nothing has been said to my face. They cannot possibly have any evidence, because I haven't harmed him. they dont even have any grounds to examine him, since I removed him to another hospital who managed to fix the abscess My lawyer has up til now, fortunately been able to run rings round them, because they have broken so many rules.
But still, I had pressure from SS in the run up to christmas, and am currently waiting to see what happens next.
I tidy my house in the evening, in case the police burst in at 6 am to take my children. Can you imagine what that feels like?
I would love if you could reassure parents like us - but sadly, the truth is that you cant - because rules are broken and mistakes are made.

controlfreakyhohohohohohoho · 03/01/2009 23:43

well i hope things turn out well for all of you. am sorry to hear you've had such an anxious time.

TheNinkynork · 03/01/2009 23:49

Nighbynight that is despicable. Goes to show that things are not cut and dried r.e CP and how obviously innocent people are victimised by SS. I will pray for you and your DS xx

johnhemming · 04/01/2009 08:24

cfhhh

xenia and others... children do not get permanently removed from their families because a parent calls them stupid now and then or doesnt hug them. really they don't.
I can name the children, but that would be contempt of court.

OP posts:
edam · 04/01/2009 10:29

Quattro much respect to your dh.

John I am SO glad you are fighting the good fight. Is there anything the rest of us can do to support the parents who are unjustly treated?

Nightynight I really hope the SWs get off your back. IIRC you aren't in Britain, are you? Is there anything we can do to support you?

Ninky I'm sorry if my mention of adoption caused any distress. We don't know if this lady was the right person. The right person would be at least 84 by now so is very probably dead, like the lady we found. We shall never know.

On the positive side, my mother had wonderful parents and a very happy childhood. A lucky break, given how many unwanted babies were born after WW2 and how many were shipped off to terrible 'homes' in what they called the Colonies back then.

Nighbynight · 04/01/2009 11:13

thank you ninky and edam. yes, I am in germany (but watching this thread very closely).
At the moment, they may be trying to get my ds into the psychiatric system via an examination for dyslexia. In germany, this is done by a psychiatric doctor. (who can, of course, tell you that your child urgently needs psychiatric treatment, and must go to the psychiatric hospital immediately. And if you refuse, they can go to court very quickly to get an order, because you have gone against a doctor's advice, and therefore damaged your child. But it's a lose-lose circle for the family; once an allegation of abuse is made unofficially by SS, the doctor will probably play safe and go along with it, and recommend ds to the psych hospital).
He is a bit behind in the school, partly because he missed around 2 months in total last year, due to the abscess, and partly because of the multi-lingual aspect.
I have enquired from an educational psychologist in the UK, and got the advice, that if he improves with extra coaching, then he probably isn't dyslexic, and that I should try this before I try dyslexia. So I have got him twice a week with a qualified, special tutor for reading practice, and I believe he is improving.
The shit may hit the fan next week, when I cancel an appointment with a psychiatric practise in germany for a dyslexia examination. Unfortunately, I made this appointment before I realised that it was just a back door into the psychiatric system.

If they insist on the dyslexia examination (with a possible hidden agenda of abuse allegations), I will get ds examined by a british educational psychologist, not a german psychiatrist. The danger is, that I will then look guilty, and trying to avoid detection. But at least ds will be at home with his family, not stuck in some psychiatric hospital. I have been told, that our local one has locked soft cells for children who aren't quiet. Imagine ds, upset at being removed from his family and put yet again in hospital..

We also face the same problem as has been mentioned further down this thread; teachers, doctors, SS, everyone goes along with an allegation once it has been made, rather than risk saying that it might not be true.

LittleBella · 04/01/2009 11:19

Fark me NN, it sounds terrifying.

I think I'd be packing up my bags and fleeing to Ireland in your position.

(I have visions of Ireland being over-run by refugees from social welfare systems....)

LittleBella · 04/01/2009 11:20

But it sounds like your lawyer is extremely competent. Can they intervene vis a vis the dyslexia examination?

Is there no equivalent of the Patients Association in Germany? It sounds as though doctors have an even more God-like status than here...

johnhemming · 04/01/2009 11:27

Anyone wishing to help the campaign should email me off mumsnet on [email protected]

Another interesing case is this one:
Won't talk to granny
Here the Court of Appeal released a 10 year old from Care. The child had been put in care because of being alienated from her father and grandmother.

The judge who did this was the same judge that imprisoned a grandfather for 14 months for talking to his grandson.

Much that when parents divide it is best for children to remain on good terms with both parents I don't think they should be put in care just because they are alienated from one parent. I know of another case like this where we are hoping the CoA will show sense.

OP posts:
Nighbynight · 04/01/2009 12:12

Ireland is noted, LittleBella!
IME, things also tend to run on common sense in France - but I must admit, my experience is somewhat limited.

In Germany, anyone with letters after their name, has a God-like status in their profession. Or, as a German person once put it (on mn? cant remember) "Germans are suckers for letters after the name."
This can also work in your favour if you manipulate the system, ie get an opinion in your favour from someone who has even more letters after their name. But I don't really want to test the system to its limits - that would def not be in my children's best interests.

edam · 04/01/2009 12:14

Thank Christ for a wise judge in the Court of Appeal.

N1 · 04/01/2009 12:16

Children don't get removed from parents for weak reasons, I agree. The Court is expeced to make a court order....after earing evidence.

Sadly, some social workers take a personal dislike to a parent (and the parent dislikes the socal worker)....lack of cooperation and personal diffrences, so the social worker makes a case out of nothing.

Judges do accept the word of social workers without expecting to se evidence.

Solicitors don't challange evidence in court. I know of a parent who told the solicitor (and barrister - i think) to dispute parts of a social workers statement. The profesional legal representation didn't because the parent didn't have evidence to contradict the information.

Long story, the children stayed in care on a full care order, where if the social worker was expectd to back up the lies with evidence, then the truth would have come out.

Nighbynight · 04/01/2009 12:25

Very true, N1.

johnhemming · 04/01/2009 13:34

Children don't get removed from parents for weak reasons, I agree. The Court is expeced to make a court order....after earing evidence.
I do not think being alienated from your father is sufficient cause for a child to be removed from her mother (or indeed the reverse).

"not cooperating with professionals" is also IMO too low a threshold. There has to be some real provable hazard. Similarly a parent being rude to foster carers should not keep a child in care.

OP posts:
BlueSapphire77 · 04/01/2009 17:23

Quote: Controlfreaky...
i have tried to catch up with this...

xenia and others... children do not get permanently removed from their families because a parent calls them stupid now and then or doesnt hug them. really they don't. as stated by me before the criteria that has to be met before a full care or supervision order can be made is that of significant harm. that is not a trivial test. you are scaremongering and misunderstanding if you keep posting otherwise.
Unquote"

They are not scaremongering hun, not in any way shape or form. Do you want to know what happened with my own child? As i have already said, she was sexually abused. A few months later, she FINALLY began counselling, something which she had been denied during the court process in case it interfered with her evidence. What bollocks. Still. She started counselling..i tried to talk to the counsellor, given that we as parents were offered fuck all in the way of support, she seemed to be my only point of discussion, unfortunately she didn't see it like this, she saw it as i was taking over my daughters' time with her, which maybe i was, but i was desperate, she only saw my daughter once a week, for the rest of the time i had to deal with the fallout from my daughters' point of view, of the court experience AND the abuse itself, so i needed help as well, i did suggest a seperate appointment with her but she refused, i said surely it could only benefit my DD if you help me as well, so i can help her, (she was having nightmares, refusing to eat, terrified of the dark, oh, and was being a complete little SHIT to me and DS, understandable, but that didn't make it easier to deal with..) I had terrible feelings of guilt given that i had been abused myself as a child, and protected DD to the point of being obsessive, but the one person i chose to trust had done the unspeakable to her..its a dreadful feeling, of feeling you haven't protected your baby from a monster.

It finally came to the point where we (my mother and i) were offered a place on a mothers' group, for abused kids.
Well, we attended every single one, and do you know, the agenda was full of SHIT about what is an abuser, and there was a SW there who worked with abusers and seemed to spend most of her time defending them, everyone was angry and felt they could not be open about their kids behaviour since the abuse came out, for fear of the SW's saying 'emotional abuse!!!! ' and taking their kids, this was 7 years ago by the way so the idea of SW's abusing the emotional abuse route is NOT a new one.
So we all sat through pie charts of what makes a dirty bastard do things to kids, and explainations of why we should not feel guilty which sounded good from a book but these sw's should try living it for real before quoting from a fucking BOOK where the author probably knows shit all and is living in dream world as well.

And we sat outside smoking cigarettes and telling each other the REAL dark stories, how we were angry at the abuser and wanted to kill him, something shouted down in the meetings as 'non constructive' the stories of being angry at the kids for not telling us, angry at ourselves for not knowing, ok, all irrational or unfair, but all natural emotions, and valid..
The nighmares, the bedwetting, the powerless feelings through court, wishing it had never came out, being glad it did, wishing the SS hadn't become involved, the feeling of having no one to speak to, no one who truly understood, the list is endless.
The SW's were detatched emotionless nodding fucking dogs to us, they didn't know the true feeling of finding out your beautiful baby's innocence has been ripped away, in their own bed, own home, the one place they should be safe..they didn't know the feeling of walking into your childs room, looking at their bed, the place of terror, dragging the bed outside and burning it in a total fit of anger...

No. You were supposed to be a robot, not show your kids any emotion about the abuse.

Total and utter bollocks.

So. Me being me, i grabbed the bull by the horns. I sat in their stupid mothers' meeting and let rip. And i REALLY went to town.
Near the end of me telling them the true meaning for parents of a child being abused, the wanting to rip abusers balls off and feed them to him, ect, i was that tearful and frustrated, when i launched into what it means for the kids, i was leaning back on my chair and hitting the palm of my one hand with the back of the other, making very very angry noises..i told them how my DD was behaving, how i felt sometimes i could just get her and shake her, and say, i know how you feel, we feel the same, we are all in pain over what has happened to you..
"I wouldn't though," i said, "Because what purpose would it serve? She is in a terrible place at the moment and if you ask me, SS have made it WORSE, not better. The counsellor (also at the meeting) is SHIT (her face dropped at this lol) i ask her questions to help my DD and all she does is stick her nose in the air and say 'Sorry its confidential'....understood, but maybe she could make suggestions to me without breaching that confidence??..Oh and by the way these meetings are a fucking waste of time because we are all afraid to speak the truth. And because whenever we do, one of you has a 'PC' answer which is fucking useless because you don't know how any of us truly feel. AND all of us are here because we have been threatened by the SW if we don't attend, we will have our kids taken away."

There followed a looong period of silence, after which the parents started clapping. Then the SW who was sticking up for the rights of paedo's said quietly, "I see. Who threatened you? These meetings are voluntary.."

"Margaret Hadley." I said. Followed by two other parents who also named her. Then my mother also named her as saying that, but by then my mum had a different SW (it is worth noting that my mum still has her daughter)

"Well, they are voluntary." The SW said. You would have laughed at what happened next. All the parents there said "So i won't lose my DC if i don't attend? " No, she said..and they all, with the exception of me and my mother, and one other mum, got up and walked out!!

After they had gone, after the shocked silence of the two SW's the counsellor one turned round to me and said "You sound very angry. Do you smack your DD at all?"
Yes, i said, i use it as a form of discipline. Then followed a lengthy whinge and moan from them about physical abuse.

Apparently following this meeting, the pair of them made an allegation of abuse against me which i never found out about until my DD was removed from my care.

This was later to come and bite me in the arse. I will probably tell at a later date. Jesus i should write a sodding book lol.

Next...

Quote:
there is already statutory provision that sws must look to place children in the extended family before seeking other options.
Unquote.

They can and almost always do get round this by saying that the extended family would be unsuitable due to feelings running high or other such bullshit.
They state that the family would be unlikely to cooperate with the SS and other such bullshit.
Or, C.. they just don't bother and bypass this stage completely, no one ever drags them up about it anyway.
My mother, for example, couldn't be my DD's carer because she WORKS. Hmmmmmph!

Quote:
and can i say again, of course it is not sws who make these decisions it is judges.

No but these judges swallow all the fucking bullshit that the SW's have spun. There should be a JURY in ALL childcare proceedings cases unless there are special circumstances that are gravely important enough to prevent this.

--
Next...
Quote:
look, i dont want to upset you any more thatn you are already by these issues.... but the idea of my 9yo ds thinking that he might be "ripped from [his] family" and discussing that with him as a possiblity because he had a genetic disorder causing bruising is unthinkable to me.

Glad its unthinkable to you. My son, having seen what the SS do, made his own plans without my prompting, indeed, he only told me not that long ago about them..He would run away, he said, if he was my DD. He would be so naughty that they would have to let him come home. Unfortunately this was my DD's way of thinking, one time, she told me she deliberately wet herself so she would break the FC's washing machine and the SS would send her home mixed feelings on this one.

But it does show how kids that do not want to be in care feel angry, trapped, and powerless.

I'd like to see your reply to this.

BlueSapphire77 · 04/01/2009 17:25

And N1.....your last post was scarily accurate

TheNinkynork · 04/01/2009 18:15

It's the power SS have that scares me. At some point a parent helper seeing my DD getting changed for P.E will be concerned, or a neighbour or someone at the swimming pool. They will have every right to be worried. Children are everyone's responsibility.

But I know we will have to jump through the hoops despite having reams of medical evidence which may or may not be admissible. Anything could happen any reason at all, as the stories here have shown.

BlueSapphire77 · 04/01/2009 19:54

I personally am not surprised you are scared. My dd's dress was lifted up over her head in a public place while the policewoman and MH .. SW, tried to tell me she had bruises all over her back..until i licked my thumb and rubbed them off (terrible mummy habit licking thumb and using it to clean child lol) Ok, so it meant my child had dirt on her back but they weren't bruises, yet even after this they continued their harrassment, so and so says you became violent punching the wall during the mothers' meetings, talking ill of the child..
Remember earlier post about slapping palm of hand with other hand? "Yes, i did 'talk ill of my child' but it was not in front of her or to her so what's the sodding problem??"
"The problem is if you lose control and call her things to her face."
Well, i hadn't..so they hadn't got a leg to stand on. And they STILL took her to be medically examined because they insisted she was bruised..the results of which came back negative but because my DD said i had smacked her in the past they told me i would lose her if i didn't agree to put her in voluntary care, for a WEEK.. until we had both had a break because we were under 'so much stress'

And, to my eternal shame, i agreed, and said, ok then, take her, and when you see what i have to put up with, and the torment my DD is going through, your FC will report back to you, what her behaviour is like, and you will see how much you have failed us.

So they took her.
Well it was either agree or lose her, but if i knew then what i know now i would have told them to fuck off with their bullshit threats.

TheNinkynork · 04/01/2009 20:05

Oh BlueSapphire77

And to do that to your poor DD (especially after what she had been through) is abuse.

BlueSapphire77 · 04/01/2009 20:44

I agree. Hasn't stopped them though.
And you know, through all of the supervised visit crap we have never been able to talk through the abuse issue, so it is lurking in the background, and will probably affect her adult life, and mine because we never were allowed to talk about it. The ss mentioned counselling for me and DD together but it never materialised cos they didn't bother to send her to the sessions

She still says now, after 7 nearly 8 years, she wishes she had never told me about the abuse. She really believes in her heart that that is why she was removed from our family
I NEVER get sick of telling all new SW's or anyone who will listen for that matter hehe all about it and the injustice of it all.

Had a brill sw called michael stone come to take my son off the children in need thingumabob and he was TOTALLY shocked at the situation and recommended a brilliant solicitor..thing is the judge bitch cow made sure the case will be referred to her so i'm knackered, she's the one that granted the sec 91 (14)
Must admit at the time i was being a pain in the arse but they were not looking after her properly..but the judge won't suffer, they are immune from being canned for anything they do wrong practically, but the SS are soooooo going to suffer for what they have done. It is simply a matter of time now.

They have not at any time followed correct procedures, no initial assessment, no looking into placing my DD with family, they were supposed to be looking into placing her with my mum but then the SW left that was supposed to be sorting it, and they never continued the assessment. They're shite. But all the mistakes they have made, will help us ultimately so my DD will be able to laugh at them when they are paying her boatloads of money.

blueshoes · 04/01/2009 21:27

controlfreaky, you are brave to come on this thread. What you say makes a lot of sense to me intellectually. But it leaves me speechless to see how so many on this thread, like bluesapphire, N1, ninky, nighby have personal experiences, who all sound eerily similar, of how things DON"T work the way you say they should in practice. What do you make of that?

Bluesapphire, the point-by-point rebuttal of controlfreaky was utterly chilling. I am really really sorry for what you, your dd and many others on this thread have had to suffer. I don't even know where to start. You say it is a matter of time. When that time comes, will the proceedings, if it gets to that, be in open court? I don't know any other case more deserving of its day in court. I will be happy to shout your/dd's case from the rafters.

blueshoes · 04/01/2009 21:49

A victory for commonsense comes in the shape of Lord Justice Ward's judgment in the Court of Appeal (in the link posted by johnhemming) overturning the ruling of the trial judge John Mitchell.

Ward LJ in the Court of Appeal ordered the return of a 10.5 year oldgirl who had been placed in care, to her mother. Throughout the proceedings the child, now 10 years old, had been adamant that she wished to return to her mother and had threatened/attempted suicide during foster care.

God bless Ward LJ.

Here are some extracts from his well-written and eminent judgment:

"I have reached that conclusion because, as I have endeavoured to indicate as I recited the judgment, [the trial judge] paid some lip-service to the child?s needs but did not in my judgment sufficiently take on board her understanding of her predicament and the depth of her feeling. Of course he is right to say that a ten-and-a-half year old child?s wishes are not determinative of her future, but a ten-and-a-half year old who has so consistently throughout the many months of this inquiry maintained a wish to be with her mother, demonstrated again to some extent by her return there within the last few days, this is a child in some distress."

Ninky, if the unthinkable should happen to your dd 9 (I hope that day never comes), please print out this judgment of Ward LJ. It is from the Court of Appeal and is binding on the High Court on similar facts.

"Should there be a period of rehabilitation? I am afraid my view about that is quite clear: no. We are not moving this child to terra incognita, she is going home. Local authorities have no compunction in moving children from a home to a foster home without any attempt at preparing the way, and in my judgment T must go home."

Ward LJ Knows how SS works. He is not a sheep.

"Again I point to the fact that, in arriving at those conclusions [that the mother could not meet her child's emotional needs], the [trial] judge had not yet addressed the other side of the coin and not yet taken into account any harm that she may suffer if placed in long term care."

Exaaaactly - just what we have been discussing on this thread re: emotional abuse! Now only if all judges in family proceedings could have his nous and sensitivity.

controlfreakyhohohohohohoho · 04/01/2009 21:50

you clearly have all had horrific personal experiences and are rightly completely furious and traumatised by what has happened and of course i am sorry for each one of you and your dcs who have experienced what you post.

but i dont think there is any point me posting more really. i have worked as a lawyer in child protection for about 20 years. your awful experiences do not reflect my experiences.... but of course i understand that is no help or comfort to any of you....it does feel like you are too cross / upset to hear anyone with anything to say that is different to your own experiences. good luck to you all.

TheNinkynork · 04/01/2009 22:10

Very useful blueshoes, thank you

blueshoes · 04/01/2009 22:17

controlfreaky, were you a lawyer for the local authority or for the family? Did you read Quattro's post about how her DH stopped prosecuting childcare cases because he felt that social workers were not adequately trained, supported or regulated and that childcare cases were being brought that simply had no business to be brought and were doing more harm than good. Not everyone feels the way you do.

Do you find what others on this thread have posted even believable? I asked you before and will ask again - what do you make of their stories?

Where aren't people who have had good outcomes (of which there must be thousands based on your long and satisfied 20 year experience) coming on this thread to defend the good work of SS and the family courts? Surely some mnetters must have been children rescued by SS.

So far the only people who have come on this thread to defend the system are not families, the so-called beneficiaries of the system. I have no interest in demonising SS. I am heartened to hear that there are some good social workers, as I am sure there are good lawyers, judges, etc.

But if a system allows a few or more bad apples who ride roughshod for petty reasons to go unchecked, and gags others who try to speak up in the name of justice, in incidents which sound far from one-off but on the contrary fitting a pattern, it is a system that is morally bankrupt and downright dangerous.