The 'Underclass'. Discuss.

[MrsSeanBean]

I am coining the term the media use to describe people living in similar circumstances to Karen Matthews - never worked, 7 kids, 6 dads, largely feckless and with no apparent aspirations.

Do we have one? Why?

Who or what is responsible?

When did it all go wrong?

What can be done to resolve the situation?

Answers on a postcard please.

It's not a new phenomenon, has existed hundreds of years before. Was previously called the gin craze, have a look at Hogarth's paintings....

I know of children who go to school in plastic jelly sandals in winter or black plimsolls cos the parents don't have the money to buy ptoper shoes

the parents do have the money to buy proper shoes doublebluff, it's called "benefits" and "family allowance"

My dad walked to school in his bare feet. He worked in the evenings and weekends from the age of 12. When he left school at the age of 14 he cycled 20 miles 2 evenings a week to go to evening classes. I could go on....

He and his family never stole anything in their lives, they all worked all their lives, and all contributed to their communities. They were staunch "chapel", - perhaps that made the difference. (My dad is in his 90s now). He gets no help from the state, other than his heating allowance and his old age tax allowance.

My parents' generation are totally bewildered by the greed and selfishness of young people who have so much more than they did.

dingdong - I know they have the money. I just find it so sad that in this day and age children are still living in poverty, and it is largely ignored.

Sorry - of course he gets his pension.

UQD. Off-topic, I know, but...
Love the poem, but please tell me you altered the 'practice' to 'practise!'

anyi-social behaviour isn't limited to 'the underclass' nor are drugs, alhol abuse, sexual infidelity or anything else you'd care to name.
I've seen some pretty appalling anti-social behaviour from the money-ed lot.

dingdong, not sure how much of your post was tongue in cheek, but those people do affect us. In raised crime levels, higher taxes to fund the rise in welfare payments and so on.
And the likes of KM and co.. are just sticking two fingers up to those of us who are funding their lifestyle.

Yes we have an under class and yes it is entirely different to the working class.

i'M SURE THAT there have always been people outside of scietal norms but the generation we now have have never seen their parents work, and possibly not their grandparents.
Some young people will not know anyone outside their estate and will only have dealings with those that work when they go in a shop.

What can be done? I think we should all get as involved as we can with young people's organisations and charities. We should all be role models for these kids that don't have them at home.

Is the underclass a new phenomenon though?

Not imo.

There are major concerns about an "underclass" in Britain. In my previous job I worked with something called the Nurse-Family Partnership Model - targeting those under 20 without much formal education having their first baby. It was intensive visiting and parenting support for the first 2 years of a child's life that was the priority. It is also still a Pilot project in many areas. Is it being funded by the Department of Health? Not on your life - it's being finded by the Treasury because there is real concern about the cost to society of poor parenting, lack of social responsibility and a lack of aspiration.

A really good book that looks at the importance of the first two years is Sue Gerbahdt "Why Love Matters" and looks at the importance of affection in growth and development of the brain.

The NFP Model has come from the USA - outcomes there are much less violence and behavioural issues in children whose families have been through the project. Brain is better developed socially etc.

A bit off topic I know but YES an underclass exists and has done for a long time.

I earn a good salary but if I gave up work tomorrow the benefits (including Housing and Council Tax benefits)would be worth about £1200 a month. If you have no qualifications and no hope - how on Earth can you even begin to see a way out or manage to bring in the sort of money quoted above. People are literally stuck on benefits and it's difficult (but not impossible to escape).

Having worked out what my entitlement would be in I did not work I get even more annoyed at the Daily Mail types who whine on about a "benefits culture". Try paying people a living wage and try supporting people into work - NOT ripping all benefits away the day they start a new job.

Surely KM - I assume that's who this thread is about - is a bit more than just a product of the underclass. What she did was off the scale. It was extraordinary. Not just feckless and careless but downright wicked.

A few generations ago, there was a very strong, 'what will other people think' mentality. Feeling the disapproval of neighbours or complete strangers was, for most ordinary people, something to be actively avoided. For example, young people remained virgins until their wedding night, people had more respect for their elders, etc. In other words, there was a much stronger social code than there is nowadays - a code which was recognised by all classes and all ages.

By contrast, nowadays I think that many people no longer care what their neighbours or strangers think of their behaviour(s); this mentality readily facilitates the creation of 'sub-cultures', where child abuse/neglect, knife/gun crime can become rife. And such 'sub-cultures' have their own social codes.

There is much less cohesiveness between people today. I really don't know what it will take to improve the situation....another global war? aliens from outer space threatening to blow up our planet and forcing us all to work together?

yes, KM is off the scale because of her ridiculous kidnapping plot, but her lifestyle is the same as many others.

KM is indeed off the scale. She's been convicted of kidnapping her daughter. Surely now she should also be charged with child cruelty.

Manny, I'm not sure I agree with you there.

I certainly don't care what other people think of me (apart from God and my immediate family) and I'm not a member of the underclass.

.

The underclass- the majority of those we would classify as such would not harm their children like KM. There is a hugely vast difference between the underclass and abusive nasty scrotes like KM, a wide gap for certain.

My last job (a few years ago) took me into these homes and I never met anyone (OK one but she was s ocial services referral) I could imagione deliberately harming their kids in any way. Quite often themselves with their own lifestyle, or through non-deliberate things such as diet, but not at KM level.
'The likes of KM' referred to above is a small grop, immeasutrably small. We're talking hgh-level criminality after all. Not the normal behaviour of the benefits dependance.

Not all people had the chance to escape the old poverty class. My own afther, 15th of 16 kids was offered a place at Grammar school and coudn't go because Nan couldnt afford his uniform.

Even then, the famillies that are working class are normal people. My family are, my dad is: massive work ethic, the like of which I have never seen anywhere else, 30+ days of 16 hour shifts at one stage to amke sure the rent was paid and we cold have new uniforms / go on school trips.

What do you do about th ones who don't want to work without affecting those who genuinely cannot work? No idea. Demand they 'work for benefits' as the Government is suggesting? Ok- so who will arrange the childcare if needed then? I bet these demands to work won't be flexible: DH may lose his job nect year, I will hopefully be working but forcing him to do 9-5 as suggested will mean I have to give up my job as it will remove our ability to share the carer role we have where one will work day and the other either study or do nights.

Another area being atrgetted at the moment is people on DLA. They suggest that everybody not severely diabled works which is great until you see the details.... teh differece on the whole between M/R dla recipients (not severely disabled) and H/R (severely) is currently quantified only in night care needs. So my fairly disbaled son who sleeps at night is not severe but could he work? I doubt it very much. DS1, severe under DLA rules, probably will though. Madness or what? Look at person before the label surely?

If your ead the Harriet AHrman thread recently you will have oticed perhgaps that a great many posts were from carers asking for help to work. These posts were ignored. perhaps the best way to get people into work isn't by being punitive, but offering the help asked for? I hope to work next year. If there ere an after school club for disabled kids I know I could work next year. Thats £50 in carers allowance saved- bingo!

Excellent post Peachy

'Having worked out what my entitlement would be in I did not work I get even more annoyed at the Daily Mail types who whine on about a "benefits culture". Try paying people a living wage and try supporting people into work - NOT ripping all benefits away the day they start a new job. '

exceptionally valid point!

When dh was umemployed for a while, the day he got a new jhob the benefits ended but it was 4 weeks before we received a penny in wages of course.

We managed as I was on maternity leave and had some income- if you both didnt work, you cant eat for those weeks. There is a massive rise in refusal of family / social fund loands this year due to an increase in request- where do you turn?

'I certainly don't care what other people think of me'

I don't mean whether someone will dislike your choice of coat or hair style, rather the 'what will people think' was a social code that helped most ordinary people to lead socially-friendly lives, in that they all shared a common understanding of things such as decency, respect and personal responsibilty.

Sorry manny yes I see what you mean now.

yes there is an underclass....why? because they have been given too much help/money in benefits to get off their backsides and go out to work.

why the hell should these people get so much tax payers money? they haven't contributed a penny.

the way things are atm, many hard working men & women are losing thier jobs...what help will they get? whatever money they do get it should be triple.

the benefit system should be used a short term measure, there to help you when you are made redundant, become too i'll to work etc.

i have no problem with benefits being given to women with young children...but limit that benefit to two children...you want more, you pay for them!