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Original poster

The 'Underclass'. Discuss.

472 replies

MrsSeanBean · 07/12/2008 11:33

I am coining the term the media use to describe people living in similar circumstances to Karen Matthews - never worked, 7 kids, 6 dads, largely feckless and with no apparent aspirations.

Do we have one? Why?

Who or what is responsible?

When did it all go wrong?

What can be done to resolve the situation?

Answers on a postcard please.

OP posts:
NowICanSpellGeansaiNollaig · 08/12/2008 10:00

I think it is an amount you can earn rahter than the number of hours.

I'm on lone parent allowance in ireland and I could earn 150 euro before it would affect my benefits. however i've looked for evening work in restaurants and not been able to find any. so, i may approach supermarkets about shelf-stacking because I can do it at night and my mum could babysit and therefore childcare wouldn't be an issue. And I went to a private school! And I am not ruling out shelf-stacking. Which brings me back to my first point, it's not as easy as some people think it is! To hey presto sort out your life!

NowICanSpellGeansaiNollaig · 08/12/2008 10:02

sorry, no doubt somebody will interpret that to mean I think i'm too good for shelf-stacking. I didn't mean that. I meant that even with confidence, education and the desire to work..... it still isn't that easy.

So when I read posts about 'they have it so easy with their back to work schemes' etc it makes my head spin.

PeachyBidsYouNadoligLlawen · 08/12/2008 10:04

that's really not what i said sm if you re-read my post

the vst majority of people in social housing are bog average ike most of us

see if i ca explain better- ok if you (totally random effed up stats) said that 3% of the pop were addict famillies with social issues and no work, isn't it possible that the 3% wider pop will also be all housing tenants- therefore having a highre % representation?

i am probably waffling niow; I underasand stats but cant explain them well.

Now the other tenants in that area may well largely consist of lovely families having a rough ride, pensioners, carers, the disabled etc but the adicts do tend to be visible ime

TheNinkynork · 08/12/2008 10:10

Ivykaty that happened in my town. I live in Basildon and don't laugh, but it was a fantastic place in the 70's. Working people moved here, had children, encouraged them to have music lessons, do well in school, University etc...

Sometime in the eighties the council took on "problem tenants" from the East End. An estate was built miles from town bordered by dual carriageways, given a couple of shops and a pub and the people were left to their own devices.

Now the rest of the town isn't much better. My estate was designed by a well-meaning architect to have lots of courtyards, alleys and no through road, (perfect for escaping from police, mugging, dealing) and although the unsightly outskirts were knocked down and lovely HA places, (like mine) built, the money ran out and the old estate has just been left as it was. You can't be seen to have anything nice and I certainly wouldn't let DD out with the children here. It's so sad because I had such a different experience growing up.

Original poster
MrsSeanBean · 08/12/2008 10:14

In my OP I wondered what could be done to resolve the problem. Bull-dozing springs to mind.

Hasn't 'slum clearance' been attempted before though? Did it do more harm than good?

OP posts:
TheNinkynork · 08/12/2008 10:16

Bull-dozing

Oh that it now my new fantasy!

Mercy · 08/12/2008 10:18

The town I grew up in now has a reputation for being rough, which it didn't when I lived there (afaik)

When the major employer closed down in the 1980s the town went into decline. Many semi-skilled and skilled people were unable to find work (or to retrain) for years.

PeachyBidsYouNadoligLlawen · 08/12/2008 10:19

planning depts have a lot to anser for.

most of the council estates back home developed around workplaces; the docks, the factories. As thse have gradually collapsed the people there have often lost hope- unsurprisingly. but they are the same people, just ofen nemployed now.

one estate differs; dad was in one of the first famuillies housed on it, and all the 'rougher' famillies were hosed there as it was apparently nice enough to change them [hmn]- dad remembers alleys of trees etc.

realty of course is that the area became a ghetto, the council half abandoned it so trees etc long gone, and its been a constant issue with riots etc over the years.

RamblingRosa · 08/12/2008 10:40

Sorry haven't read whole thread but, in answer to OP, the underclass isn't a new concept/phenomonen....Karl Marx was talking about it way back in the 19th century.

I don't understand why a lot of the media attention around the Matthews case seems to have been expressing surprise along the lines of "most of us didn't even realise that there were sections of society living like this". Really? Are there people out there who really didn't know that there is an underclass in Britain?

ScottishMummy · 08/12/2008 10:51

peachy there are 385+ posts i am not specifically replying to you having read the thread and related media articles i am responding

PeachyBidsYouNadoligLlawen · 08/12/2008 10:54

fair enough sm- I went into hat post tinking I hope i don't cock this p, I just thought I had done

MarxAndSparks · 08/12/2008 10:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheNinkynork · 08/12/2008 11:01

Slum clearance is effectively what has been done in my area. The HA places were lovely and if you have a sparkly-clean place you can get quite obsessive about keeping it that way. Especially if you've been in a grotty flat. Well you'd think so, wouldn't you?

I was invited in by a neighbour I'd been chatting to at the bus stop. The houses were not two months old and she had wrecked hers. There were plates, still with food on, all over the surfaces. She only washed up once a week apparently. This woman had one child at school. She also got into the habit of knocking on my door late at night to borrow ten pounds, "for my son's football club tomorrow" or some such rubbish.

In my block of four houses two of them have had children removed by SS.

I really do wonder what we can do about it and where we are going wrong. Throwing money at things isn't working where I live.

Original poster
MrsSeanBean · 08/12/2008 11:13

MarxandSparx - very interesting. I think this sums up nicely, and I quote:

"...parents living in poverty who want better for their children are not helped by political attitudes that protect at every turn those who take no responsibility for their lives. No parent's 'lifestyle choices' should be exempt from scrutiny if they are clearly risking the welfare of their child."

OP posts:
TheCrackFox · 08/12/2008 11:15

The NinkyNork that is such a shame. My mum works as a housing officer for the council and some of the stories she has to tell are heartbreaking (she never uses their names). One story I remember is that a particularly notorious estate had a massive refit (kitchens, bathrooms, the works) and one woman came back from having a day out and her DH had ripped out the brand new kitchen and sold it!! She was heartbroken as she was so proud of it but they lost their tenancy over it.

Original poster
MrsSeanBean · 08/12/2008 11:15

Ninky Nork - that' so sad

OP posts:
Itsjustsorandom · 08/12/2008 11:17

Benefits should be stopped only unless you are made redundant & should depend on how long you've worked. Anyone on benefit to be allocated with community work.

Anyone who's not worked to do compulsory community work as well & get vouchers for food, rent & bills, free bus transport plus a small cash payment - £10 per week. All the things owned worth selling like cars, tv equipment, phones, electronic goods ... to be sold to support themselves.

Compulsory to follow the above if you receive help & money from other tax payers & state. Off sick so can't do community work then no money.

The disabled would get benefits. Child Benefit for one child per mother & only until 2yrs and then only if one of the parents works and does not claim benefit.

People who don't claim benefit to get a tax bonus for themselves of if sahm/sahd then on the main breadwinners paypacket - similiar to when you don't claim on car insurance. You don't claim so are financially rewarded.

If any member of your close family commits a crime then all benefits stopped for all close family members forever. This would mean parents might bring their kids up not to be criminals.

RamblingRosa · 08/12/2008 11:29

Itsjustrandom is that last post meant to be funny?!

Itsjustsorandom · 08/12/2008 11:29

RR - do you think it is?

TheNinkynork · 08/12/2008 11:30

It is, and that's bloody terrible TheCrackFox

I worked at the school which serves the estate I metioned earlier. For one term. Couldn't handle it. One of the girls was shouting to the boys to, "lick my " and the teacher in charge of CP wouldn't even flag it up because, "it's just these parents watching disgusting videos and leaving revolting literature around". The girl was in Year 3 and two weeks later another girl in the same year was abused by Granny's new BF.

I was in tears every night and you know, the other thing about the underclass is that problems which may be genetic - certain behaviour and learning disabilities, become rife so quickly because the same few men are fathering children with different women. Even on my estate there is a man who currently has four women expecting his babies.

TheNinkynork · 08/12/2008 11:30

Sad it is, not your post!

Anna8888 · 08/12/2008 11:31

at one man simultaneously fathering children with four mothers.

We need to teach women to protect their own interests better than this...

RamblingRosa · 08/12/2008 11:32

I'm hoping it's meant to be funny!

Itsjustsorandom · 08/12/2008 11:34

Not sorry to disappoint you rr

SheSellsSeashellsByTheSeashore · 08/12/2008 11:41

@ itsjustsorandom is that really how you have things?

Why not just set up the workhouses again? Or ask the ghost of Hitler if he would like to come and run our country for us?

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