Baby P

[GeraldineMumsnet]

Hi, to make it easier for people who are finding this subject very distressing, we're going to keep all Baby P posts in one thread. If you'd like to discuss this subject, then here is the thread to do so. We'll go on the other threads and link to this one. Thanks very much.

Same86 - do you know if that's Bromley Council organising this? I live in Scotland, so it's not at all near me, but it would be interesting to know about as it sounds very much what I was thinking of.

I have just had a written reply from my MP regarding the email I sent him for his support for the EDM.

I had forgotten that the Shadow Cabinet cannot vote on EDMs, but he is going to contact Ed Balls on my behalf and wirte to me again when he has a reply from him.

timeoff- i think it is the council, i have emailed my own council as well as volunteer organisations wher i live-liverpool- to see about the possibility of setting up similar schemes but havent heard anything back yet. id really like to do something like that too and think it could really help as obv there is such a lack of social workers. il let you know if i hear anything back here!

id also be interested in a balloon release in liverpool or a fund for a proper plaque. x

optimists- thank you, its something ive always been interested in but i feel this has given me a greater push and sense of purpose iykwim.
it sounds brilliant what you are doing with the homestart etc. i also would be interested in fostering when dc have left. i wish there was something we could all do too.i lit a candle for him but want to so something more too.the little angel deserves to be remembered so much.

Worley I was disturbed by what you had to say about working in the NHS and seeing non-accidentally injured children go home with their families - and you going home crying . I just wanted to know what is the procedure supposed to be if a doctor or a nurse is pretty sure a child has a non-accidental injury? Isn't it supposed to be followed up with SS and/or the police? Is there ever a case when a child isn't sent home?

I've just readthis and I'm so angry! I can't believe it's possible that this evil woman could be released as soon as next summer

i can't believe she could be released next summer no doubt she'll be breeding again within a few months....

From the sae article:

Marches in memory of the toddler will take place on December 13. In London, the "March for Baby P", will gather near Parliament Square and head for Hyde Park. Other events have been scheduled for cities and towns across Britain including Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, Plymouth and Exeter.
Marchers are being asked to bring blue balloons to release at 12.10pm the time of day at which Baby P was pronounced dead following one minute's silence.
Stacey Francis, from Harlow in Essex, an organiser of the London march, said: "We are expecting thousands of people. We are campaigning to get the professionals involved in this case sacked, as they would be in any other job if you made such a big mistake.
"We also want child protection laws tightened because we don't feel they are up to scratch, and plan to set up a foundation in Baby P's name."

thought you might find this article interesting

www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/free/Baby-killer-gets-life.4628747.jp

Horrid and tragic yes, but what about this, what about the many unreported cases?

I just can't fathom the hysteria. I'm pretty sure his father would rather remember him in his own way than have money flung at him for a public memorial.

AmI, The Amy H case was horrid too I wondered why that hadn't been more media frenzya bout that too, doesn't make sense they can't just pick and choose which they think is worse.

Personally I don't see the point in he whole balloon release thing at 12.10pm yes it's the time he was pronounced dead but not the date or anything what about the kids who did die on that day who's thinking of them?

Think it's a bit shocking too that they are campaigning to get those ionvolved sacked, I think they need to keep them on board and try and discuss where they went wrong it's the only way we can try and stop it ahppening again. The only one who should be sacked IMO is the doctor because she clearly didn't do hetr job properly and she doesn't have people to watch over her.

what a dreadful idea that march is......anyone taking part should be ashamed.

Well I just thought some people here might be interested in the march. What I don't agree with re the march is the organisers part of the campaign about having people sacked. But I think many people feel the need to express their feelings/take some kind of collective action about Baby P and at least these people bothered to organise it...

Skydancer thanks for that info. I think it is innappropriate for people on this thread to attack other Mum's who want to (understandably) go on the marches

Why don't you save your anger for the people who committed this crime, or who stood by and did nothing to help Baby P, rather than attacking other Mum's who want to honour his memory with the best intentions in the world?

The people who have organised the marches mean well, even though you may not agree with it. They just want to make their voices heard.

Well said my greataunt!

Can anyone clear up a couple of niggling questions i have?

1. Why are people 'routinely released halfway through their sentence'? Why not just give them say a 7 year one instead of 14 and then out in 7? I don't understand that. Is it so they have the potential to keep them in longer if they don't behave?

1. Why is there no mention of any sort of therapy for this woman - I mean surely it's obcvious she's extremely damaged and mentally ill, yet nothing is said about treatment for her issues whilst in prison. So yes, she could just be released (God forbid with a different name) and be having more disastrous, tragic relationships and children who are subkected to torture yet again.

I'm not saying she needs to be locked up for longer necessariy but she definitely needs help to ensure this doesn't happen again - how is that being faci.litated?

Yes they get longer sentances so that they can keep them in longer if they don't behave or don't appear 'rehabilitated' although how you can rehabilitate evil is beyond me. I cannot comprehend how some one could inflict so much hurt on a child they supposedly love.

I doubt very much she will get much mental help in prision but I would imagine she will have access to the prison counselling service. I don't think that she if ever got pregnant again she would be allowed to keep the child that will be how they are preventing her reoffending.

There is a difference between fixed term and indeterminate sentences. If someone gets a fixed term sentence, the law is that they are released halfway through. For someone like this woman if she gets a fixed term sentence when she is released she will be on licence for the other half of the sentence and there will be a stringent list of conditions on that licence. If she breaches them she will returned to custody and possibly could serve the rest of the sentence inside.

The other option is an indeterminate sentence. Here the judge sets a tariff and until they reach that point parole cannot be considered. This kind of sentence is reserved for people who pose a high risk of harm to the public and are for sexual and violent offenders. There is some debate whether any of the perpetrators of the Baby P will fit into this category because there victim was very specific. Depends on how the judge sees it. I guess the 'boyfriend' may as it is clear that he has some psychopathic tendencies. parole isn't automatic and infact people can be kept in indefinately until it is deemed they are safe to be released. Once released they are again subject to stringent conditions which is breached will lead to recall. These conditions will include contact with a probation officer, requirements about where they can live, work etc.

I think, on the little I know of the people involved in this case that there are clearly issues about the boyfriend being a violent psychopath but not so sure about the woman. I suspect she was also a victim of the boyfriend's violence but this isn't an excuse of course. We will have to see what the presentence report says. I doubt she is mentally ill and to be honest, it won't be about counselling her, it will be about managing the risk she poses. On release she will have to have an identify change and I suppose she could disappear eventually but I think they will be quite closely managed in the community and doubt very much they will be allowed contact with children, let alone be allowed to keep any more.

The sentences will no doubt seem inadequate but that's due to the charge. I think the murder charge just wouldn't stick and rather than risk losing the case completely the CPS probably took the view that the 'causing the death of a child' was the best they were going to get.

(I work in the criminal justice system - not showing off btw! This is probably one area I do know about - for a change!)

I have a feeling that the Stepfather will 'serve' his time in Broadmoor. Not in a 'real' prison.

Re the march I wasnt attacking you skydancer I said me personally,

I think that whatever people want to do is fair enough but I think they are doing it for the wrong reasons, they need to be campaigning for more funds in children's services, beter training and more laws to ensure that this doesnt happen again, rather than focusing on this one event and try to protect others through the pain and suffering of Baby P try and make his little life worthwhile.

Im not attacking anyone Im just sying thats what I think they should be campaigning for.

Fifitot, thanks for the clarification. Why wouldn't a murder charge have stuck?

Because they couldn't prove who struck the final blow, they all took part n the abuse but only one of them murdered him

As far as we are told it was the boyfriend but we have no way of knowing that is true.

I would have thought though that the reduced charge for murder would have been manslaughter I've never heard of an adult dying and those involved being charged with causing o allowing their death, it seems as though kids have less rights in this daya nd age

Again I think they would have struggled with the manslaughter charge. They would have all blamed each other and with nothing to prove it, they may have all got away with it. The causing death of a child charge was introduced for this very situation. Unfortunately the max of 14 years IMO isn't long enough.

The woman pleaded guilty the 2 men denied it.

Oh I thought that Jason guy pled guilty but blamed the monsters mothers boyfriend? No?

Makes you wonder if she does actually feel guilty about it, I think that would be the worst pounishment if she realised the pain she had put herf own baby boy through! The guilt would be unbearable(sp?).

Thanks Fifitot, I understand a bit better now...sort of. Shocking how nobody can be held for murdering the poor child.