Baby P

[GeraldineMumsnet]

Hi, to make it easier for people who are finding this subject very distressing, we're going to keep all Baby P posts in one thread. If you'd like to discuss this subject, then here is the thread to do so. We'll go on the other threads and link to this one. Thanks very much.

thank you.

The main instigator is clearly a violent, sadistic psychopath and I use that term professionally. Not sure about the others, I think they are violent and we know Baby Peter was physically abused by the mother before the partner appeared but the sadism appears to have increased when he appeared. He was clearly a powerful man and became head of the house and so where he went others followed and it became normalised.

In certain situations this can easily happen, gradually the violence is normalised and then moves onto the next notch and so on. Think of Lord of the Flies as a fictional account of this process.

fifitot, what makes a violent sadistic psychopath? Are they born or made? Probably both, I reckon. Is it possible for someone to have what is recognised as fairly normal upbringing yet turn into such a beast?

I assume you have some background in mental health.

fifitot, I appreciate your viewson here, you've taken it to another level. it hasn't been commented on (yet) but i assume the violent boyfriend had a hold over the mother in a way, she done as she was told.
there are thousands on families out there who live as you have described. I've also witnessed it for my own eyes. children wandering around the house in a nappy (nothing else), bare floorboards, none of the family wash or have clean clothign to wear, they spend all their benefits on alcohol, drugs and fags etc. it's a shock to your system if youhave never witnessed this first hand, let me tell you. it's like a different world. but that's the only way they know.

It's not legal to neglect your kids but the fact they took that route meant they became fixed on it and didn't recognise the overwhelming evidence that it was abuse.

I read a good article in one of the papers from someone who talked about 'do gooders. It is not the done thing to be critical of the working class but having come from a working class background myself I have no trouble telling it how it is in a professional setting. i worked in a probation hostel once and there was a guy there that had poor personal hygeine. the amount of hand wringing that went on about how to tell him....I just went up and said 'listen mate you stink, have a shower'. A trite example but it shows what I mean.

Now I don't want to be anti-social work, there is alot of good done and some great staff but there is this old fashioned attitude still hanging around. It needs to modernise itself. The probation service has done it over the last 10 years - moved from being concerned with the welfare of offenders to one which manages risk and enforces the law.

I was surprised to hear that other children lived in the house and also hope that he got some affection and kindness from them. I wondered how people would let their children go and play in such a house too.
I'm surprised one of her other kids at school didn't let it slip that there was such a full house. I can't help asking why the dad and gran didn't insist on taking Peter out of there especially as gran is supposed to have suspected abuse. Then again we don't know the full story and maybe the mother was devious enough to have covered it up/justified things. As for the 15yr old, she is a child therefore subject to statuory rape by the lodger. It doesn't sound like her family lived like the Waltons either so maybe she didn't know any better or was too terrified to deal with it.
I would like to see justice being done and think 14yrs in prison is not long enough but I disagree that they'll get what they deserve by getting beaten etc in prison. Thats a knee jerk reaction and just perpetuates the cyle of hatred/brutality which brings society nowhere. Plus if they're out in 14 yrs or less do you think they'll say "oh we really deserved that we've learnt our lesson lets never offend again." I think not. The prison system is another big failure. Prisoners are v likely to become more brutal/desensitised inside. I don't know what the answer is but I know it isn't that. I do hope the negligent workers get struck off.
Thanks for the links to the pages where you can email/write to bring about change. Some hope at least.

What makes a psychopath???? Bigggggggggg question. Nature or nurture? probably both as you say. A psychopath is basically a person without empathy and some are sucessful business men and use these characteristics in a reasonably benign way. However for someone interested in violence, then the risks are clear.

You aren't born mad, there are arguments that there are some things which are inherited but generally the way you are brought up shapes how you are as an adult. Someone else on mumsnet mentioned some recent research that showed that abused and neglected children actually have 'gaps' in their brain, their brain doesn't develop like others and the part of the brain that doesnot develop is the bit that impacts upon empathy, decision making, control etc.

(I have a psychology degree but don't work in mental health at the moment. Work in the criminal justice system though.)

BTW - sorry to be such a know all. I don't know it all but trying to bring a bit of perspective to the discussion.

thanks, fifitot. There cannot be an easy answer.

I agree with ahfeckit, I'm also really struggeling with this case. I cannot stop thinking about it, it's always on my mind to the point where it's the last thing I think about before I go to sleep. I think it's because my dd is 17 months old, which I believe is the age Peter was when he died. I keep looking at her and seeing that poor wee boys face, it's so very sad.

There have been many things in the news that have upset me in the past, but for some reason this is different. Perhaps because I'm now a mother, it's hard for me to understand how another mother could ever do such a thing to her child. I think this is one of the few things that I have watched on the news and properly sobbed over.

I think it's awful the way people are saying that it's the social services fault, it's the people who did those disgusting things to Peter that are to blame. They are the ones that killed that little boy. SS have failed to imho, they should have removed him, and for that failure they must share a piece of the blame. But the real blame is lying at those 'peoples' feet.

I saw the pictures of the 3 of the on facebook yesterday. They were somehow leaked and have now been removed. But my God, they're just normal looking people. I think that makes it worse, how can 'normal, average people' do things like that?!

I keep thinking that I would loved to have taken that wee boy away from them, and kept him safe with me and my daughter. It's all so very sad.

Fifitot, your perspective is very valuable.

Another difficult question: is it possible for a psychopath to feel remorse eg if violence of a similar kind were inflicted on them in the prison and they realise the extent of opprobrium with which their acts are regarded.

There seems to be collective denial here: by the perpetrators that what they were doing was somehow justified and not abuse. And by the social services in inadvertently colluding with the family with their liberal hand-wringing and desire to be politically correct.

I like your 'you stink' comment - it is possible to overthink minor issues and miss the major blind spots.

How to get a psychopath to feel remorse - sheesh wouldn't know where to begin. TBH this will be addressed in prison but for them, the main thing will be when they are eventually released and how they can be safely managed in the community to minimise risks to other children.

Work will be done with them to address what they did but they are such damaged individuals not sure how much of an impact it would have. If they did develop a conscience then maybe that is a fitting punishment - to live with their crime every minute of every day.

i know a lot of people don't like the Sun but on their website they have the prosecution documents which outlines each time Peter was seen and by who from the day of his birth until he died. Quite amazing when you have it there in black and white,he had been seen by so many 'professionals' that he was not removed.

Whittington hospital is not the greatest but I am very surprised that they discharged him tbh. They do have a pretty good team of doctors up there.

thanks fifitot. Expecting them to feel remorse is probably pie-in-the-sky sadly. My concern is that the lead instigator, the mother etc have exhibited very devious and manipulative behaviour which will also be used to hoodwink any (lefty?) parole board. There is every likelihood they will make a very convinving show of remorse and rehabilitation.

They are bad but not mad enough to know let it show.

mabanana - agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly. Stefan Kisko was one of many. You also have Sally Clark (also has since died), Angela Canning and Tripti Patel. Not only did they endure the loss of their precious child, there were also blamed, convicted and imprisoned and unable to access decent support for the terrible loss and grief. And then, they were at the mercy of the PO's, and the other prisoners who feel that the justice system isnt enough and that they are entitled to mete out their own style of 'justice', as decided by themselves. What an awful, awful time those poor women had.

Fifitot, your perspective is very interesting and I agree with your post of 13.11. It encapsulates much what I have been thinking but couldn't really articulate.

The parole board aren't 'lefty' - they aren't like that. It's not really a left/right issue. The parole board can make mistakes of course but people aren't just released cos they've behaved themselves in prison. It has to be demonstrated that they can be managed safely in the community. Alot of professionals come together to make that decision.

Mygreataunt - thanks for posting about the other children. Poor little mites

I am guessing the man who did this to Peter was also 'toughened up' by his father perhaps...very damaged, never even questioned it...

and possibly Peter did not cry a lot. Possibly he knew it would bring more violence if he cried, so just went quiet instead.

I don't know. The whole thing is just unremitting misery and tragedy.

Also agree VVV. Whilst I do understand the need in many people's eyes for this type of "justice", a civilized society cannot allow rapists and murderers and the like to decide what kind of punishment others should get. Its just wrong I'm afraid, whatever your personal feelings about what should happen to the perpetrators of these crimes.

Sally Clark- I cannot read that poor womans name without filling up.

Mamadiva-I didn't know the dad had taken Peter a few months before. How sad for him and anyone else directly involved in this hateful story.

I like many have been deeply affected by this story. I have cried, hugged my babies tight and cannot get images out of my mind. What annoys me alot is the superior patronising messages on this thread that suggest that those of us who have been so upset by this are somehow flighty yummy mummys who are not part of the real world, and only get affected by those stories that hit the media and who don't realise that these horrors go on all the time most of them never reaching the papers. Someone even nastily retorted to someone else "did you cry when Diana died perchance?". Well I believe this story about baby P has brought it home to alot of us that one child a week dies in this country at the hands of their parents or carers, most of them we never hear about. This story more than others has brought that message home, I don't know why. This is the first case that's ever made me get off my backside and out of my cosy existence and do something. I am not talking about a vigil or even throwing money at the NSPCC (which I do already), but actually volunteering at my local women's refuge that provides safety for women and children suffering from violence and abuse. There are plenty of ways you can actually make a difference to the vunerable people out there. I work full time and can manage to give 2 hours a week, and maybe time at weekends (check out websites such at Home-start.org.uk or www.do-it.org.uk or search under women's refuge. If this tragic sickening story makes a few of us open our eyes and help others then that's a good thing.

Thanks for that Emma-

Im actually trying to get into the same thing now I want to work in a Womans refuge now so am going to try and start out then go into counselling.

It was in the Sun Crysanthamum I knwo its not the most reliable but they seem t have been pretty decent throughout this story IE no heightened bullshit.