23 year old has assisted suicide in Switzerland

[Evenstar]

Here news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/7676812.stm

This is terribly sad, I wonder how much help and support this family were given in the wake of their son's accident.

I do understand and have some sympathy with your position Jimjams, and yes, 10 months out of hospital and 18months after a lifechanging and catastrophic injry is not very long at all, but suppose he spent 10 years in a state of suicidal despair and physical pain, crying and panicking and begging to die...would that be OK? He might have come to terms with his new life, but he might not. I think the fact that he tried to kill himself and then tried again is very telling. This was not just a cry for help.

Support both mental and physical is essential in the early years (well and ongoing). A particular piece of equipment can make a huge difference, but probably costs too much for people to go out and buy. (Just to give an example there are some pieces of equipment that could make a massive difference for ds1 but cost thousands - in the case of spinal injuries you can probably at least quadruple that and then add some). In the early years of spinal injuries families may well be dealing with court cases. It's an incredibly difficult time that kicks in overnight. There are very few things I can think of that are more shocking tbh.

It's why support is so essential in those early days. And equipment. Not some poxy NHS funded crappy wheelchair. A proper one that lets you do things and access life, so that you have a reason to carry on. Equipment that lets you use a computer independently. Etc etc. These things make a difference, but cost hard cash and take time to organise. A year post accident I can guarantee you probably haven't even found out about half the stuff you're entitled to (because no-one professional does anything useful like tell you).

Without support both emotional and monetary of course families and individuals cannot see other options.

I feel very very sad for them

I think this case highlights the need for the level of support that is needed as soon as devastating injuries happen.

10 years is enough time in your opinion. How can anyone possibly set a time limit on someone else's suffering? I can't imagine what spending any time at all in the constant pain etc that we are told Daniel was suffering would be like. By setting some kind of limit you would be imposing your idea of what is satisfactory thinking time onto someone else. I really don't think anyone is in a position to do that.

From what little I know about the Swiss system, the whole thing is videoed to prove free will and the assistance is limited to providing the drink and, if necessary, holding the glass with a straw in it. The actual drinking of it is a voluntary act on behalf of the person committing suicide.

Has any kind of disclosure been made about what support he got? That seems to be a missing piece of the story.

Well, he was in the best spinal unit in the country for 8months. No idea what happened after. I think I read that he didn't want much support ie counselling etc afterwards as he was so focussed on suicide.

mabanana - if I thought he would spend 10 years trying to kill himself then I would have ever sympathy and say 'god let the poor man out of his misery'. The reason I find this case so sad is because I think it unlikely that he would have been that desperate for that long. I've watched families come to terms with severe disabilities (far more severe than ds1's). I understand the emotions I went through, which from talking with friends are very similar to the ones they went through.

There is a well understood process that people go through when coming to terms with disability (although it's often more complex than presented in text books). The final stage of this process is 'acceptance'. It's the stage that most people reach. Therefore you have to give time for it to be a possibility.

The article I read written by someone in the same situation described how his life changed dramatically quite quickly. He went from seeking suicide to wanting to live rapidly (which was why he was against euthanasia) and for him unexpectedly. I think that moving from despair to finding that actually you have a new normal is quite common as well.

I'm off to bed, but have to restate- I really am not accusing him or his parents of anything. I feel terribly, terribly sad for them and it may be that he would have killed himself, and there was only ever one possible ending. I do however think the clinic behaved irresponsibly.

And a thank you for the sponsorship to those who have sponsored me. This case has really brought home to me how important charities such as Aspire are. I started the challenge because I wanted to get fit (i.e for selfish reasons). But when I swim now I will be thinking about the people who might be able to benefit from organisations such as Aspire and actually how essential their work is. There's actually a much better reason to swim than to shed a few pounds.

I think you must have missed this line of my post Dragon:

"I'm not one to prescribe a time limit as to how long it takes to come to terms with disability."

No, I didn't miss it. My point was that no one can decide how long is long enough. Daniel had obviously had enough after 18 months.

and the "you" in the setting a time limit bit was a more general "you", not you personally. I couldn't bring myself to use "one" and sound like a ponce

I'm not surprised he felt so desperate after such a, relatively short time, being disabled. Dying aged 23 he missed out on so much. My father is paralysed from the neck down and has been since my mother was pregnant with me.

I'm an only child. In those early months he felt the same, it took him a long time to come to terms with his accident. He's been alive another 30 years since then and has seen me, his only child, have 3 children and he wouldn't miss knowing his grandchildren for the world. He's been depressed as you can imagine but I believe it can be something worked through just like any depression. He has ups and downs but he lives his life and wants to be alive.

He doesn't live a "second class existance" in any way and I actually find that insulting.

I agree with jimjams. I don't think a year is enough. I don't know how you could be in anything other than a state of shock within a year of going through this horrific change from supremely able-bodied to severely disabled and dependent.

Agree too that many able-bodied people have great difficulty imagining that a severely disabled person might lead as good and valuable a life as one without disabilities. I know a mother who lost her very severely disabled child last year, who on top of all her grief has had to deal with those horribly ignorant "it's for the best" and "you can get on with your life now" type sentiments from people who somehow saw her son's life as a tragedy, rather than his death.

And that isn't the only thing he's enjoyed, he worked as equality officer and now he's also a local counsellor so life isn't as limited as some think. He does a lot, sees art galleries with my mother, restuarants, etc etc, just like anybody else.

And my point is that he had hardly begun the journey after 18 months. These grief stages have enough stuff written about them. It was one of the first vaguely useful things we were taught post diagnosis. Time, time, time. It takes time.

discussion of the case on a para/quad board. Views are mixed, but there's quite a bit of 'it was too soon' and that's from people who have been through it.

I work with someone who has had a serious injury at the age of 15.

He spent 2 years in intensive care and there would have been lots of times he felt like ending it.

The is 22 now and still requires alot of physical care, but is at uni part time and out clubbing every weekend and learning to live his life a different way.

I to believe that choosing to kill yourself after such a short time is a tragic waste

Oh Iorek that's so sad.

I read a book this year where a father describes how his severely disabled son almost died in a choking incident. And then he sat cold and imagining the number of people who would say 'well it was for the best' and the such like and he described how that would make him feel. That poor mother you know What on earth possesses people?

The whole point of this is he needed assistance due to his disability. We all have the right to commit suicide, it isn't an illegal act. He couldn't physically due it himself

I would say making him live by not assisting is going against his human rights

I have a disabled from birth child, if she asked me to help end her life, I would do what I could. If anyone else said her life is not worth living, I would fight them to the death

The point is it was HIS decision, everyone is saying what a life he could have, he could be happy but he wasn't, he didn't want that life. The only way out was for someone to help him, the same way he needed help with dressing or toileting. Saying that because he was disabled he shouldn't have the same rights as able bodied people is disabilty discrimination

That is exactly how I feel, scaredoflove. It is the eqivalance of not helping with actively preventing that makes this young man's situation so special.

To actively prevent the suicide of an able-bodied person of sound mind is a terrible violation of their autonomy. And I guess that any carer of a severely disabled person must daily face the challenge of an obligation to help that person to make mistakes as well as to do the right thing.

I know the film 'My Left Foot' was controversial among disabled people, and I don't know what people here with more experience than me of disability think of it, but I always remember a moment in that film where the lead character with severe CP is in a pub drinking to much and being drunkenly vile. Some well-meaning twat pulls his wheelchair back, so that he can't reach his beer. The FURY the character feels at the exploitation of his disability to control him in a way that would be clearly uacceptable if he was able-bodied is very moving.

I'm sure a year is too short a time for the adjustment. But if it was a mistake I applaud his family for letting him make it.

"Saying that because he was disabled he shouldn't have the same rights as able bodied people is disability discrimination "

That's exactly what I tried to say but was too scared to actually put it so bluntly.

My stance on this is that it is not our place to decide how long a person should have to live with something they find intolerable before they are "allowed" to take their own life. Whether we think it too soon or not, it was his choice to make and he made it. The only difference between this and an ordinary suicide is the fact that he was physically unable to do it himself.

I agree with jimjams, completely and utterly. I think one year on from any life changing trauma you are not 'yourself'. I realise there are several stages to grief but after a year I imagine most people are still in the first two stages and are certainly not rational enough to make such devastating decisions.

I don't think that legal assisted suicide in the UK would lead to a huge rise in suicides amongst, say, the bereaved. I do not believe it will lead to forced euthanasia either.

IorekByrnison, my Mother encountered severeal of those 'type' comments when my sister died. There was a young man buried opposite her who died around a similar time. He died in a motorbike accident, my sister was ill. His Mum said to my Mum, at the graveyard, well its different for you as it was expected, your daughter was ill Now, even my own mum understands it is a different situation but my mother still buried her own child, she loved her exactly the same as the other mum. My sister was not worth any less because she was ill

That's awful filz. I know the other mother was angry and upset, but honestly

ONe big difference between the recently bereaved and those with devastating injuries is that the recently bereaved are generally surrounded by people who understand that it takes time to rebuild your life around a loss (I don't suppose you ever 'get over' it). People understand that life can be good again and so you will get that reminder and appreciation from society. IN fact you'll probably get the irritating opposite where people think you 'should be over it by now'. Rather than this sort of situation where it seems to be believed that you'll never get over it.

Judging by this thread, faced with someone with a severe injury most people only understand it in terms of loss. Perhaps they think that for some people it's not so bad after a while as it was. But they're not understanding that a severely disabled life can be equal to an able bodied one. JodieO's father's experience sounds like one that took time, but led to a full and active life, which I think is the usual journey.

I know people look at my son and see a tragedy. They make it very clear in the language they use. But I think they're totally misunderstanding the fundamentals of what life is. Those of us with no disability can be very blinkered as to what makes a good life. As I said before it took me seeing my son enjoying something I do every bit as much as me to appreciate the quality of his life. If I had been a bit more open minded I would have seen that a lot earlier in his (rather than my) sphere.

Jim jams - I don't think anyone is saying again, that a disabled person can't have a full and worthwhile life, and I am a bit aghast that the debate on here seems to have come to a disabled versus non disabled divide, rather than a discussion on assisted suicide. I do think however that Dan James made a decision that was his to make about his life, whether or not anyone thinks he should have given it longer, he didn't want to, and could see no future for himself.

Someone said on here that you eventually get to a stage of acceptance...I think that you have to decide for yourself what is 'acceptable' and if you can live with it. Dan James evidently couldn't.

You also said: 'I am particularly uncomfortable with the able bodied being so involved with the termination of a disabled life.' I don't think that his parents would have viewed it like that....it was Dan's life and he had decided he didn't want to live it any more. I also don't think it was involuntary euthanasia which is how you make it sound by that sentence. Should the able bodied not be involved in the lives of the disabled then?

My point is about society and people around them.

Faced with a friend who wanted to commit suicide because of a lack of money (the main reason people kill themselves apparently) or a loss of a loved one, or some other difficult period in their life I cannot imagine anyone would stand by and say "yes, it's your choice and I will support you in whatever you decide". One year after a life-changing difficulty you would say 'give it time'. I know people who have been in that situation and that seems to be the message.

Perhaps I have it wrong. Perhaps people do say to someone suicidal because of a life changing event one year previously. "you obviously can't live with this change in your life, so yes I fully support your decision and will help you however I can". And if they do, then I think they're wrong in those cases as well.

Of course I think the able bodied should be involved in the life of the disabled. However, I think the able bodied should be very very careful about making quality of life judgments about those who are severely disabled. I also think that attitudes towards mild/moderate disability are generally fundamentally different than those towards significant disability. Because we tend to judge quality of life by how 'normal' it can be. Which is totally the wrong starting point. But someone thrust from 'normal' to 'severe' is of course going to be thinking in the able-bodied mind set. It takes time to find the new you.

The able-bodied I was referring to being involved in the death, was the clinic NOT the parents. The parents would have been at the same stage as the young man. They would have needed the same support to explore the idea that quality of life doesn't have to end with disability. They would of course needed support to understand that acceptance (which usually happens) takes time. I think the family have been badly let down. I don't think the family let their son down. That's different.

I think the parents may well have not supported his decision at all in the sense of even thinking it was a good idea, or wanting it to happen, but quite possibly simply saw the strength of their son's feelings on this issue, knowing his personality, seeing his previous suicide attempts, and hearing his very serious thread of slow suicide by starvation and so felt it their unwanted duty to be his arms and legs for him. I would imagine he absolutely begged them to release him.
I honest think Dan's situation (complete physical dependence, physical claustrophobia and helplessness plus constant severe and presumably intractable pain) is very different to losing money or a love (he had I would surmise, lost his financial independence with his injury, and given his previous lifestyle, I would guess he may also have lost his girlfriend) - much more drastic. I would say to someone to someone in despair in those circs, 'You can earn money again' or 'You'll meet someone new' 'you never know what will happen to reverse your circumstances' etc. Those consolations of a change in his life really weren't available to Dan. Yes, he may have changed his outlook in time, but if he was planning to kill himself by starvation, that wouldn't have happened either.