Church schools should stop discriminating against teachers and pupils, say church leaders

[edam]

This news story is interesting. New group of church leaders and 'secular figures' campaigning to stop religious schools discriminating against non-religious families and staff, or those from the 'wrong' denomination.

(I have looked to see if there's a thread on this already but couldn't find one.)

Boy, datfpunk, this is kinda like pulling teeth. Let me rephrase this as a simple question.

Why should Catholic schools exist or rather, given that they do exist, why shouldn't be just abolish them and every other faith school?

OK, for a start I don't think there should be Catholic schools, or Muslim schools, or CofE schools, there should just be schools open to the children who live near them, or in the case of special needs, open to the children who require an education suited to their needs.
So if there is a local state-funded school then it should not choose my kid over your kid on the basis of whatever belief system you or I happen to have been brought up in or to have adopted, or vice versa. If it is over-subscribed, it should choose according to sensible, practical considerations such as proximity to the school and siblings at the school. Children with additional needs should get priority where the school best fits those needs. Eg a child who uses a wheelchair should have priority for a school which already has level access and disabled loos etc.
The school should not be allowed to interview parents, select by looking at the parents' bank balances, job, colour, creed, political affiliation or favourite football team .
People who want to indoctrinate their child into following their religion, job, politics, or favourite football team will be free to do it home and their church, party rally or football stadium of their choice.
Nice and simple.

Why do you need a catholic school bring up a child as a catholic. Whats the difference between catholic geography lessons and nasty muslim geography lessons. Do you say twenty Hail Marys before doing phonics?

Even in a faith school RE does not take up all the curriculum. My son's secular school has assembly everyday and he does RE once a week.

Surely if the catholic church wants to spread its message it would welcome non catholics. Aren't we potential conversion material?

Ummm daftpunk please could you explain why you think there should be state funded faith schools?
Perhaps that would help us better understand where you are coming from.

It's absolutely wrong to believe that all kids in faith schools are religious anyhow- 2 of my sisters kids start a popular faith school this week: 1 is a believer and raised in the faith; the other familys tarted attendance when her DH realised that it was cheaper than private . Sister is no non-believing that se really got uppity about my RE degree! has always been fervently anti-faith until it suited her.

Why should people who have no faith but are able to manipulate the system (if the parents had, say, worked nursing shifts so unable to attend church but been Christian believers so no vicars signature on a letter) get a place at an academically better school? It serves an area- there is a fair walk to the next- aq mixed a\rea of low and middle incomes, so should be open to that area imo.

Mind, I am so set on the matter I actively chose not to take the Church school teaching cert as I would never teach in one.

cestlavie;

i understand what your're saying, but closing down all the faith schools and throwing everyone in together (as lovely a hippy idea as it is) just isn't an option. and why should it be?

why should the non believers shut our schools down..it's laughable.

i don't care what you do, why do you want to interfere with me?

you have your schools don't you, it's not like the only children getting educated are children from religious backgrounds, and your kids are sitting outside doing nothing.

you have no argument at all.

I think all schools should be secular religious schools only encourage division in society and not integration
if you are so keen for your child to be brought up in a particular religion then do it at home
if you wnat your child to go to a religious school then they should be completely private and receive no state funding whatsoever
my child goes to a c of e school btw but because it is our nearest school and for no other reason

Thanks daftpunk, although technically I don't really need an argument. Given that we don't allow religious discrimination in any other service provided by the state, it's rather those in favour of practising religious discrimation in schools who should be obliged to justify why...

...and please stop saying "why do you want to interfere with me". Firstly, I don't want to interfere with you personally, I'd like to interfere with an unfair and discrimatory system. And secondly, you can 'justify' anything with that argument, no matter how utterly insane. "Hey, what's it to you if I want to send my kids to school in just their pants and covered in strawberry jam cos its Thursday! Don't interfere with me!"

I repeat daftpunk please could you explain why you think there should be state funded faith schools?
Perhaps that would help us better understand where you are coming from.

eachpeachpearmum;

why do i think faith schools should be state funded?

ok, if faith schools were abolished, my taxes would still go towards paying for my sons education, just in a different school.

all you seem worried about is that you're taxes are going towards a school you can't get into (how selfish). there are loads of schools you probably can't get into for whatever reason.

my taxes are probably going towards schools for performing arts...i don't begrudge these schools...if some parents want their child to learn circus skills..bloody well fine by me.

That does not answer the question!
Why should faith schools be state funded?

My tax pays for many things I do not personally benefit from. I am not at all worried about funding schools my DC cannot attend- they can only attend ONE school, taxes pay for all state schools in UK!
If I choose private healthcare or an independent school for my DC, I do not begrudge paying taxes for others to benefit at all- these are my choices. The NHS, and the state education system are there for the benefit of ALL. Faith schools are not.

Performing Arts are not circus skills Do you watch television at all? Where do you think many of those people learned their 'craft'?

Why do Catholic children need a different sort of education?

I can understand why Deaf children or autisic children need special schools, but why do you need special schools for Catholic children? What are the special educational needs of being Catholic? The Catholic children at my son's secular school are happy.

"my taxes are probably going towards schools for performing arts...i don't begrudge these schools...if some parents want their child to learn circus skills..bloody well fine by me. "

As far as I know all stage schools are private. I don't think you get that in the state sector.

All schools have a selection criteria. So it follows that no schools faith or non-faith are open to everyone. Your objection is that religeon is not a valid selection criteria. But, I think it is. And obviously I am not in the minority or these schools wouldn't be so darned hard to get into.

I agree with everything Daftpunk has said. I do not understand why people who are not religious want their children to go to religious schools.
DD goes to church and sunday school and this is augmented in her school life through the Christian ethos of the school.
Why should the spiritual welfare of the child be ignored in schools? how sad that some parents do not see the spiritual life of their child as warranting attention through their education.

NOooooooooo
WHY IS RELIGION A VALID SELECTION CRITERIA?
that is the question. I do NOT want my DC to go to a faith school- I would die first.

In what way should spirituality and education be linked?

eerr - because it's a religious school?

"I would die first" - really?

Yes, daftpunk of course there are state primaries to teach children circus skills...er...

Is it really so hard to understand that most of us
a don't want divisive religious schools to exist (so don't want our children to go to them)
b Have practical objections to them - ie in a village where the one school is a faith school, this makes life very much harder for people who are not of that faith
c Have moral objections to state schools being allowed to choose pupils on the basis of something about their parents (which would include colour, sexuality, income, political affiliation etc)
d Have worries about the kind of divided society that faith schools promote
e Think that state funding should not go to provide special education which is not based on educational need, especially if this disadvantages other people and reduces their choice.

These are not particularly complex arguments to grasp, but, bafflingly, seem to elude some people. I just think people who defend the state school system should be happy for GPs to be able to chose who goes on their list based on religion. So if your GP doesn't like Catholics/Muslims/Hindus/whatever, they should be allowed not to treat them, eh?

AN: religion is not a "selection criteria" in the same way that skin colour is not a "selection criteria". It is an absolute and prevents children even applying to the school. A school which practices selective admissions, on the other hand, is open to everyone to apply to. That is a pretty fundamental difference.

Donnie: the separation of state education and religion is the product of the last 200 years since the Enlightenment when society realised that the separation of state and religion was beneficial to society. No-one is arguing that if people want to link religion and schooling privately that it's not allowed but that practising religious discrimination in a service provided by the state is wrong and unfair.

Just curious, do you think its right that church schools discrimate against people applying for jobs in them? What about Catholic schools discrimating against Gay people or unmarried mothers.

athetist teacher denyed promotion

Now this is a truely shocking link to show how evil some faith schools can be to their employees.

teacher sacked for having IVF

EU thinks it Ok to sack gay teachers

Oh, can we have school with selection based on political affiliation. I want one the that forbids pinkos and lib dems. Where can I find one?

There is nothing wrong with my religeon. I need not be ashamed of it. I want my children raised in this releon specifically because I was raised by die hard proud atheist. It did me no favours. I want my kids to have a sense of belonging when they go to church. This is important to me and I can not understand why it bothers anyone else.

I do, however, understand why parents don't like if their only school for miles and miles is a faith school and they are not of that faith. But when you have 20 schools in a 10 mile radius I don't understand what all of the fuss is about.

Oh look... free circus school

"I want my kids to have a sense of belonging when they go to church. This is important to me and I can not understand why it bothers anyone else. "

Well take them to church then. FGS

My son has been taken to church most Sundays since he was two weeks old. He has more reason to feel a sense of belonging to his church than a lot of kids who have never been since starting school.

You need to be practicing christians as a family if you want your kids used to church. It matters tiddly squat which school you send your kids to.

". But when you have 20 schools in a 10 mile radius I don't understand what all of the fuss is about. "

Some people actually want to walk to school. I would take your point if you had 10 schools in a 1 mile radius.