Church schools should stop discriminating against teachers and pupils, say church leaders

[edam]

This news story is interesting. New group of church leaders and 'secular figures' campaigning to stop religious schools discriminating against non-religious families and staff, or those from the 'wrong' denomination.

(I have looked to see if there's a thread on this already but couldn't find one.)

And as for the brainwashing remark, you could say that about all education. I'm making my DD (age 5) go to ballet this term. She says it B O R I N G. But I decided it was best for her. She is sulking now, but she will enjoy the class when sh is in it. And as for church, actually, she dragged me there yesterday. I wanted to go to the gym and she said "But mummy, remember last weekend you said we would go this weekend." So off we went...

She likes church and she likes school. I'm glad she sees (mostly) the same circle of friends in both places.

BTW, our church school gives 30% of the places to proximity rather than churchgoes so not everyone goes to our church.

If we can't abolish faith schools (and at the moment that's probably politically impossible) then we should at least remove the faith qualification for entry. Otherwise there's simply no reason for these schools to receive taxpayers' money. They should just become independent fee-paying schools and have done with it.

Accord's programme sounds like the pragmatic spproach that Iorek has been advocating for some time.

Ah but it wouldn't result in discrimination by wealth

There are two council estates behind the school I am thinking of

So if it were done by nearest to the school then there would be a good mix of pupils. Most of London has private and council housing side by side I think you'll find!

As a Christian, I see church schools as a mission and outreach, and I don't think that believers' children should have any priority at all. The priority should be for children of unchurched families.

squeakypop

umm... but that could result in all the non-believers in the faith schools, and all the believers in the non-faith schools?

interesting debate for the next governors meeting.

Sounds like a great situation!

I don't see anything wrong with it at all.

No point in hiding your light under a bushel!

i can see your point.

iv'e never liked the idea of a light under my bushel either.

Hear hear SqueakyPop. I was a bit sad to see no big hitters from the C of E hierarchy amongst Accord's supporters, but not surprised
I am a practising Christian too and think that the only way forward for faith schools in this country is for them to admit any child whose family is accepting of the child being educated in that faith environment.

The church won't do that, Marina, because it's one of the main reason the CofE is still going in this country.

Daftpunk you may pay a 'voluntary' amount each month, but the fact remains the taxpayer is funding the school, so why should it be a faith school? (and I'm sure the amount you pay per month is nothing like the cost of independent education).

I am an atheist, and I believe there should be complete separation of education and faith- schools should all be secular. If you require your child to have a religious education- that is your choice- you should pay for that not me, or our neighbours etc.
We live in a very different society from the days when most of these schools were founded (I know we say 'faith schools' but in practical terms most of them are CE or RC)- society is formed of people from a multitude of faiths, and indeed those of no faith.

I am more than happy for my DC to be taught about ALL faiths- I think it is very important that they understand what makes up different cultures, and have an empathy and understanding along with respect for other people's beliefs.

The point is MY beliefs are not represented by the system. Kevin Brennan says "Parents should be able to choose the type of education and ethos they want for their children." I cannot because every single attempt to set up a secular school in this country (England) has been thwarted. Moreover, whichever (state) school I choose to send my DC to they are compelled to participate in a daily act or collective worship.

I think this is a step in the right direction- faith schools should not be able to discriminate against children whose parents have decided they are not of a specific religion. A better move would be to remove all religious influence from our schooling.

I worked in a RC school for 3 years. I was asked during interview about my own religious beliefs which I was fine with as this was relevant to the post. My family are RC but I am c of e though not practicing. I was asked if I would support the Catholic ethos of the school to which I replied yes.

I arranged masses for my class, took hymn practice as I was the music specialist, chose the hymns though I always checked with the RE coordinator. I taught RE using the ?Here I Am? curriculum and was observed on many occasions and was given great feedback as to my lessons. I decided on the music for the carol service, taught it and conducted it so I was heavily supportive of the ethos of the school. A new head came and I was 'demoted' in that I had my music responsibility taken off me and given to another RC member of staff who was less qualified musically to have it (she had no musical qualifications at all) I was told that things had to be 'liturgically correct' and that I wouldn't understand this not being RC.

Teacher's who were non RC were asked to leave meetings at certain points as RC/Diocesan business was being discussed and they were then asked to join again when the business had been finished. I was recommended for management training by my deputy yet the training was given to another teacher who had been at the school less time as it was 'her turn' I was told by my deputy that is was because the other teacher was RC and I wasn't.
When the Head left the deputy was asked not to apply for the post as she was divorced (none of the parents knew, I only found out as a result of the head leaving) yet she had been at the school for 12 years and would have been the natural (and best) choice. They rejected applicants who were 'not high enough caliber' yet they still would not let her apply and the school was 'Headless' for over a year. This was a ridiculous situation and they fixed it by approaching a candidate they had previously rejected as they had no one else apply.

The children were fabulous, the parents weren't that bad but the diocese was very prejudice in their treatment of non RC teachers they had given jobs too. One teacher was 'living in sin' yet that was fine because she was RC, another openly talked of having affairs and that was fine as she was RC so they wanted you to join the club but it didn?t seem to matter if you followed the rules at all. Even the priest magically 'left' after parents complained he'd taken inappropriate photos of their children.

I am glad to be out of it all.

MG,

I teach in a RC school and I feel very respected for being active in my faith, albeit Anglican. I have never been told not to do anything or to be specific. I go along with my Anglican experience when doing pastoral care and prayers with my form, and any other encouters.

MG,

I teach in a RC school and I feel very respected for being active in my faith, albeit Anglican. I have never been told not to do anything or to be specific. I go along with my Anglican experience when doing pastoral care and prayers with my form, and any other encouters.

eachpeachpearmum;

i'm a taxpayer (or i was for years) i paid for loads of things that i will never use. thats life.

Daftpunk, would you be happy for community schools to exclude the children of practising Catholics (or at least to push them so far down the priority list as to exclude them in effect).

As things stand now, you have the choice of all the state schools in your area while those who don't share your religious beliefs are in effect excluded from one or more. How is that fair?

Daftpunk, if you were excluded from those public services on the basis of your colour, gender or sexuality, you'd be able to sue. But it's ok to exclude people of other religion, or those of no religion, from their nearest school?

Blimey, had resigned myself to having started a deeply tedious thread that no-one cared about, and suddenly there are lots of responses!

Will have a proper look tomorrow...

Daftpunk -I pay tax that provides many services I hope I never need to use, but they are universal services. I do not begrudge others using these services- that is what they are there for- the use of those who need them.

Brummieontherun said it perfectly- my DC cannot go to our nearest school, even if I wanted them to, as they are not RC. They cannot attend the best school in our area as they are not CE.

This is outright discrimination against children who have no control over what religion their parents choose for them.

I ask again- why should taxpayers pay for children to be indoctrinated into religions? If there were 6,850 Islamic or Humanist schools rather than in the main Christian schools, I'm sure there would be uproar.

Because it is the state religion, and therefore it follows that the state should support it. (not sure how Catholic schools got into the mix)

If you forced the religion out of these schools, I think you would find they were no longer top performers. The relationship between the school and the church builds a community which then supports the school and it's students. If you break that community you might find that the school no longer excels academically.

As for the taxpayers supporting it, if those same students were forced to go to a non-faith academic school, then tax payers would still be paying for it, but without the 10% discount. So faith schools aren't costing you 90% of the cost of running the school. They are saving you 10%. That 10% times however many faith schools exist in this country is an awful lot of money.

CD, the school you are talking about may get rich/poor distribution. But, generally speaking, good schools are near expensive houses and crappy ones are in poor areas. So telling everyone they have to go to their local school would result in good education for the rich but not the poor.

AN - my question is why do we have a state religion in this day and age? (and RC is there because in the past, CE didn't exist! All Christians were RC)

I would argue that nowadays churches do not build the community. I live 100 yards from my closest school, an RC school. I see children shipped in by car everyday (not all, but a sizeable proportion). I also see the car park of the attached RC church fill up on a sunday, with elderly people who don't actually live in this area (perhaps they used to, but they certainly don't now), and children who are dropped off by their parents- because the children have a requirement to attend due to their place in the school- hardly a strong community!

The RCC is not established in this country - you can't ask about state religion and then give your local RCC as an illustration against the CofE.

Agree that there should be a complete separation of state schools and religious affiliation. As I have said before, our village school is CofE but funded by the LEA. It is fairly religious, the children often go to church and the vicar is a regular pressence at the school. We live in a rural area and there are no non CofE schools near by so I have no choice.

For both my children I have been asked to sign documents saying that I support the Christian ethos of the school. I do not and cannot sign the form.

My children are aware that Dh and I are atheists but that their relgious choices are their own and they should respect other people's views even though we do not agree with them. However, when they say in school that "we do not believe in God - in our view there is no God", they are told "Shush - that's not very nice is it". Is that not religious discrimination too?

Sqeakypop - that's great your school is confident in their choice of teachers and also confident in your abilities to support another faith.

My first head teacher at the school was very confident, she turned the school from one that was shutting to a Beacon school whereas the second Head had no experience at all of being a Head, came from a failing school and was very unconfident in her approach. She felt she had to manage everything and couldn't trust her staff.

I left to work in a C of E school where I felt my contribition was highly valued in all areas of the curriculum.

Do you know there is now a lobby to let religious organisations run hospitals, dental surgeries and other services?
I wonder how happy, say, someone who is gleefully excluding small children whose parents were brought up in a different religion or none from their 'faith' school, if they found that their local hospital wouldn't treat their child because they were the wrong religion?

And of course, those hospitals, dentists etc, would be legally permitted to fire people or discriminate against them re promotion etc simply because those workers, though qualified and dedicated were the 'wrong' religion. How can ANYONE think this is right?