Church schools should stop discriminating against teachers and pupils, say church leaders

[edam]

This news story is interesting. New group of church leaders and 'secular figures' campaigning to stop religious schools discriminating against non-religious families and staff, or those from the 'wrong' denomination.

(I have looked to see if there's a thread on this already but couldn't find one.)

I believe that state education and religion should be entirely separate or schools should teach about ALL religions. Parents are then free to bring up their families in the religion (or not) of their choice and schools are inclusive for everyone. I also believe that at Primary level at least, all children should go to their nearest school.

Going back to a previous point of AN's about how would the state manage of all these faith schools changed to being non-faith schools, and we had to find the extra 10%.... well- drop in the ocean compared to NHS or MoD costs....

In our authority, there are former faith schools who have responded to the changing communities around them, opened the doors to all, and dropped the VA/VC status. They have moved with the times. Interestingly perhaps, they are all former CE schools, not RC schools.

Not very Christian (I know there are other fait schools but not where I live) of the Church to stop funding just because they don't get their own way anyhow!

I would love to send DD to the nearest primary school, or the next nearest or the next nearest or even the one closest to that. Unfortunately I am not allowed to apply because they are religious.

Now I could get my friend's lesbian ,over who also happens to be a vicar to write a letter of recommendation for me, but that would be cheating wouldn't it.

On a more sombre note, I was watching that Channel 4 dispatches programme last night about teachings in the Regent's Park Mosque. Much of it was not radically different from the stuff I was taught by nuns at my primary school. Religious indoctrination has a lot to answer for.

I think in those cases its more to do with the fact that it was inappropriate to be Voluntary Controlled when none of their intake were Christian, and the process happened over a good few decades.

To go back to AN's point on discrimation on the basis of religion versus wealth. As a society, we have already accepted that discrimination on the grounds of wealth is acceptable in just about every walk of life - it's called capitalism and whether we like it or not, it is the prevailing doctrine in this country (and most others).

On the other hand, since the Enlightment (i.e. for the best part of 200 years) we have also accepted that there should be a separation between state and religion - obviously a pretty fundamental part of this is that discrimination on the grounds of religion in any state activity is, or rather should be, wholly unacceptable. Why state funded schools should be allowed to opt-out of this seems unclear to me.

Personally, I think the only half-way acceptable form of selection in schools is academic selection.

I wanted our religion to be part of our children's education, so I chuffing well decided to educate them at home.

I've said before on MN that the point of church schools at the beginning was altruistic - to educate all the local children, not to create a Christian-only ghetto. I do think the church schools have the government over a barrel on the topic, though. But adopts doom-laden tone something must be done!

why can't people just leave faith schools alone? some people want to stick their noses in and cause trouble for the sake of it.

i have to accept that my son wont go to a grammer school because he's not that cleaver, i have to accept that i can't send him to certain schools because we live just outside of the catchment area, i pay taxes to services i will never use,...all these things i have accept and i do, some people want it all....well you can't, you're not catholic so you cant send your child to a catholic school...get over it!

At catholic school I worked at briefly brutally discrimated against a very talented teacher who happened to be homosexual. The poor guy was horrendously bullied.

Personally I would not want to send my son to a faith school. I think Jesus wants christians to mix with the wider community.

Still we had the last laugh when the over subscribed faith school was put into special measures a few years ago. My son's rough community school got a good for its last OFSTED. So much for people going to church to get their kids into the C of E school.

Daftpunk, that's not exactly a sophisticated argument is it?
If you were told you weren't allowed to go to the only school in your village because of your religion, but had to somehow get your kid to a school literally miles away, and you didn't even drive, you might feel differently.
Yes, you pay taxes for services you don't use...because you don't actually need them! You don't pay taxes for basic essential services that actively REJECT you because of your religion. How would you feel if your bins weren't collected because of your religion, or you weren't allowed to vote because of your religion, or your local GP refused to register you because of your religion? I'd guess you are going to say you wouldn't mind, but I bet you bloody would!

daftpunk Who is causing trouble for the sake of it? I DO NOT WANT to send my DC to a catholic school. Have you read anything I have written?

The point is there shouldn't be any faith schools.

Can you imagine if I suggested there should be schools just for chinese heritage children, or for children whose parents are gay, or for children whose parents pay tax in the 40% band?

You don't have to accept that your child cannot attend a certain school due to catchment areas- you can move house. This is a free country. If I wanted my DC to attend their nearest school, I would HAVE to move house.

If your child is not academically gifted enough to go to a grammar school, then that obviously isn't the best school for his needs, likewise I wouldn't actually send my DC to a mainstream school if they were severely autistic, I would seek specialist provision.

Faith schools do not promote cohesion, they promote exclusion. In the case of Christian schools, this is in contradiction of the teachings of their faith's main protaganist. Jesus Christ promoted inclusion, going out of his way to include those who society had cast out or shunned.

More evidence here from today's article by Polly Toynbee in The Guardian.

She is much less ranty than I am

Daftpunk, please stop using that argument "I pay for services I don't use". That's not the point clearly. The point is that those services are universally available and that no-one will stop you using those services on the basis of, for example, religion.

How would you feel if you did need one of those services, for example the hospital, and you turned up and they said, sorry, we don't treat Catholics and in fact, there are none around here that do. You'll have to sort yourself out.

Just look at Northen Ireland the problems that faith schools cause there.

My son goes to a school for children. All faiths or none are welcome.

I detest the pretentious mums who go to church to get their children into church schools. There is one mum who feels strongly that my son should be in the under fives sunday school because he wore hearing aids until recently. He is six years old and our vicar is not prepared to do anything about this woman and her daughter bullying my son.

In fact I am looking for a more refreshing church that reflects the teachings of Christ. Rather than a middle class club for midle class families.

I am sure that stopping faith schools selecting on church attendance would reduce church numbers. However a lot of the people who would stop going the church is better off without them.

"hello, I'd like to buy a ticket for the 9.03 to Paddington please"
"Ok, what religion are you?"
"Um, Catholic"
"Oh I'm sorry, that train is exclusively for Hindus/Jews/Muslims/members of the CofE and I can't let you on. I might be able to squeeze you onto the 11.05 to Waterloo. That's an Catholic train."
"But that's not convenient for me"
"Sorry, but you're the wrong religion for the 9.03. You could have got the 7.15 if you wanted. That's an all-purpose train which will accept anyone."
"Sorry, isn't this the national railways system?"
"Well, it used to be, but now 40per cent of all trains are run by faith groups. They pay 10per cent of the cost of maintaining the train, though of course, taxes pay for the track and staff, so they get to pick who gets on the train."
"But that's totally mad...."

I think faith schools are even worse than faith trains tbh. Schools are for children, and they don't choose their religion!

yes i bloody would mind, but thats not happening to me is it...and before you come back and say..well it is in this country and that country, i know it is, but i can't stop that can i?

i haven't got the answers to all the religious problems in the world..who has! i am merely saying that a non catholic child should not be admitted to a catholic school infrount of a catholic child...how sophisticated to i have to be to put that point across? it's basic common sense.

oh and btw, if the only school in my village wouldn't accept my child on religious grounds, i'd walk miles to the nearest catholic school in the rain...my parents had to!

NO, it isn't 'common sense' it's blatant and, dare I say it, unChristan discrimination.
And your parents didn't 'have' to do that. They CHOSE to do that. Atheist parents of children are FORCED to travel when the only school nearby is a so-called faith school.
And when you say you wouldn't like to be discriminated against when it comes to essential services, yet you support it for other people, that doesn't really reflect well on you IMO.

Yes, daftpunk, I don't think anyone is missing that part of your argument. The slightly more salient point is that there shouldn't be a catholic school in the first place.

daftpunk, why is it so bad for your kids to be educated alongside non Catholics. Our kids don't all have aids and genital herpies?

What are you scared of? Do you think your nasty protestant neighbour's kids are going to corrupt yours?

There is no reason why a child cannot be brought up in a particular religion at home. Do you not attend church? In fact its impossible to bring your child up as a christian with home input.

Its one thing to choose to walk miles in the rain, its another thing to be forced to when there is a school near by.

msdemeanor

what essential services am i denying anyone...is going to a catholic school if your not even catholic essential?

Face it daftpunk. In this case you are happy to be disciminatory because it works in your favour.

Um, I rather think education is an essential service, don't you? And religious schools are allowed to exclude children from their local school - sometimes the only school for miles around - simply because their parents belong to the 'wrong' religion.
As I said, how would you feel if the only GP for miles and miles refused to treat you because you were Catholic? Actually you've already answered that one. So I think the nub of your argument is, discrimination is bad, unless me and mine benefit from it.

I agree daftpunk a non-catholic child should not be admitted to a catholic school ahead of a catholic child.... because there should not be any catholic (or any other faith) state schools.

And you are happy for discrimination to happen to others, as long as it's not happening to you? Nice attitude, very Christian.

What would you think of having a school that only admitted white children with married parents? Thats essentially what many faith schools are.

no, thats not what i'm saying at all, it's not a case of "i'm alright jack" it's just not fair to discriminate against catholics in favour of other faiths? how is that fair?

i chose to bring my child up as a catholic, you didn't...which on of our children should get the school place?

if you come back and say your child, then you're discriminating against me.'