Work for dole

[ReallyTired]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7514513.stm

I think that proposals like these are long over due. Although I think that if you make people work full time for their benefits they won't have time to look for job.

Prehaps they should work three days a week and look for a job two days a week.

There are people who for good reasons cannot work full time, but certainly could do something part time.

No not to you dilemma sorrry

Keep on twisting it round, fiodyl.

Maybe one day you'll get there through all that murky water.

I won't hold my breath, though.

Expat I realy can't be bothered with this conversation anymore its been dragged off topic and isnt what I came in here to discuss.

I really don't get the reason for the defensive atitude, like I said before why would someone be bothered unless they had something to hide?

Ive had hundreds of conversations like this one in the past, and they never lead anywhere productive. The best course of action is for one person to just walk away. which is what I am going to do now.

Oh OK sorry fiodyl

I think the crucial thing about these schemes is always in the way they're implemented. there's nothing wrong in theory with finding work for those who haven't got any, and asking them to contribute a little to earn their money, assuming people are capable of work.

Now on this thread there's been a lot of mistrust that the government will be able to implement this in a way that truly helps those who are capable of work and doesn't pressure those who aren't.

My personal view is always to wait and see before judging - if this legislation comes into force (and it might, as the Conservatives suggested a very similar scheme a while ago, so even if Labour go it might still happen), it might be implemented well and sensitively and make a real difference. But if we decide before hand that it isn't going to work and everything is rubbish, well then we just sit around being bitter and moaning and not really getting anywhere.

The other thing I wanted to point out is that just because in other countries this has been used as free/cheap labour for companies, doesn't mean it will here. There is nothing in that article that says that the work people are asked to do will be in the commercial sector - it could be community work such as sprucing up estates or parks or helping out with youth clubs etc, where there are never enough volunteers and never enough money to pay people.

The proof is always in the pudding

you don't get it, riven, but a lot of people like you do, particularly if they do not have children.

latestnews

All I've been trying to say is, before anything is implemented, WHY are key issues like the number of adults who live in poverty being already in work, the rising number of children living in poverty, the rising number of people now claiming JSA, how Tax Credits Office errors are treated, the threshhold for being able to receive Working Tax Credits, the abolotion of 10p tax, the threshhold for being eligible for council tax, employers offering only temporary positions so they don't have to pay things like paid time off sick and annual leave and the line not being addressed first?

Because it all smacks of the government's treatment of the motorist: keep raising the cost of it without offering or investing in cheaper, reliable, more efficient and flexible public transport.

It's always a case of the stick before the carrot, and I think that's short-sighted.

Hence, why I have no trust in the government to implement changing.

Because they can't be bothered to think outside the box about the real issues behind people staying on benefits before ramroding through changes to the system.

expat, part of the problem too is that the tax/benefits system is so incredibly complicated making it difficult to challenge. Example: know anyone who has protested/mached about national insurance?

Nice to know a Texan being so liberal

I'm a British national as well, ilove.

I haven't lived in Texas since 1989 or set foot in the US for over seven years.

But every now and again I buy Martha Stewart .

Having once had an almighty Working Tax Credit cockup and subsequently having to claim HB, and having to help SIL out with forms after she left her abusive ex and took her two sons with her, I'm aware of how the benefits system can be, too.

Of course, she went back to the ex then split with him again but left the kids and went to live with her mother and now both of their Income Support and CTC has been cancelled, but that's another story . . .

Riven, that's such a rock and a hard place you're stuck between. I can't understand why people get all fired up bitching about the 1% of claimants who make fraudulent claims,when what they SHOULD be getting passionately upset about is the fact that PLENTY of people like your husband will work like a carthorse his whole life and never be able to sit back and enjoy even a state pension.

I do not understand - how can anyone come to the conclusion that it's okay for people to have to work for their benefits, if the people are finding it hard to get work in the first place? Erm, wouldn't it be alot more sensible to actually make the 'work for dole' jobs into actual paid employment? To give a person the sense of self esteem and motivation they need to go and do a 35+ hour week, surely it's better to say

"Here is the money you and your family need to survive on this week, plus £20 extra as you have worked for it"

than

"Here are your benefits to which you are entitled, now sod off and go find some proper work."

Also, really how can anyone justify that a WOHP can be paying for/claiming benefits for a childminder to look after their children - and that's okay, but to want to look after your own children during sickness/holidays is scrounging. Are childminders scroungers as well then?

"I do not understand - how can anyone come to the conclusion that it's okay for people to have to work for their benefits, if the people are finding it hard to get work in the first place?"

I think that may apply to some but a lot of people on JSA and IS see that benefits can pay more than working a min wage job so wont work - thats the difference. Some wont take jobs as see them as beneath them and expect to walk into a top job rather than be prepared to start at the bottom.

This scheme is a step in the right direction but needs to be aimed at those who are physically able to work but wont - those who are pysically disabled or care for somebody who is should be excluded or have special rules.

I dont see anything wrong in people having to work for benefits if they are able to, benefits are not supposed to be a lifestyle choice but a safety net.

"I think that may apply to some but a lot of people on JSA and IS see that benefits can pay more than working a min wage job so wont work"

Well life on benefits is hardly a bed of roses nor does it leave you with much cash left at the end of the month.

Would YOU, if you were already on a very low "income" take a job that where you'd be financially worse off??

Riven, according to the bbc and sky websites single parents have their own reform and are not part of this one until they get changed over to JSA - which will happen when children reach a certain age. Full time carers and disabled people "with the greatest needs" will be exempt. Doesnt mention HE but probably because it would be open to abuse.

FAQ, in answer to your question - yes I would work and earn less in benefits if I am ever in that position. I have a good work ethic and wouldnt expect to live off benefits if I was able to work. Thats where the system went wrong, people see it as a choice and it shouldnt be.

IB and IS are being scrapped in line with the new reforms. The government has finally realised that the benefits system is being used as a lifestyle choice and that taxes can no longer support it. The new reforms look good from what I have read today and are a step in the right direction.

I think alot of people just believe the government/DM hype about these 'scroungers'. I totally agree with expat, that the fat cats are ripping us off for far more but no-one goes after them. And about the 'work ethic', this system of paid work has not always been in existance, some would call it wage slavery/exploitation. Whatever, it is very unfair for some and a function of our system is that there will always be those unable to work and always be unemployed. I don't think people should be made to work but think that if jobs were well paid then more people would choose to do it.

Also, someone on this thread (sorry can't remember name) was saying that they had a fairly high disposible income and that it is entirely possible to live on a low wage; but this person, I think, had a council house with subsidised or cheap rent, few people have that chance these days and some people (not me) would say that if you are able to work (both parents) and afford to rent privately then someone would need that house more.

Anyone see the programme a couple of weeks ago about the man on incapacity benefit with (can't remember exactly) a lot of children (was it 6 or 8 - could have been 20 actually).

He was incapacitated because he was apparently an alcoholic (my dad was an alcoholic too and he worked until he was 65). He was picking up £27,000 in benefits plus all the add ons like housing benefit (according to the tv programme, anyway, and I am always a bit sceptical). If you gross that up to a wage, it would probably amount to £35,000. Admittedly he lived in a total slum - but he could afford a trolley load of cider from the supermarket so you could argue that he could afford a few tins of paint to make the house look better.

Sorry to people who have genuine needs, but I find this sort of thing a bl**dy disgrace. I have always worked and my children have had to go to day care, and after school clubs. I don't earn £35,000 (I don't have umpteen kids either). Perhaps if he had to work to support his family, he wouldn't have had zillions of children.

I would like to spend more of my money on my children and it angers me that I have to support people like this man.

Some communities (such as the one in the programme) were devastated from the closure of industries though and have never recovered. What if there are not enough jobs for everyone?

Of course, he must have had quite a lot of time on his hands to have 20 kids (or whatever it was). There was no work, so let's bring 20 more children into to the world to perpetuate the benefit claimant culture.

Sorry, but I am past sympathy with people like this.

i don't think these measures take into account just how daunting and difficult actually finding a job can be for some people. Yes, the right job gives you your self respect back and gives you some purpose in life, but the wrong job can make you more depressed than you might have been on incapacity benefit.

I think this country needs to focus on creating skilled British workers to fill the skills shortage in the labour market, not forcing people who are unwell into 'McJobs' which will only lead them back into a cycle of self-hatred and depression. Just think of all the former mining communities in places like North Wales, that now have high rates of incapacity benefit. When the pits were open these communities had purpose and pride in themselves. When the skilled jobs disappeared, people saw their best hope was now to compete with one another to sit at a checkout counter all day. and of course depression, other mental illnesses and incapacity benefit claims all went through the roof.

I don't think people should be working full-time in order to receive the dole, part-time yes or on and off. They have introduced this system to an extent here in Germany and it has caused a lot of bad feeling/depression/anger all sorts. Sometimes it just isn't viable or reasonable. In particular not for single mothers with small children but they are enforcing it nevertheless. Imagine your children are 6 and 3 and you have to travel somewhere, work full-time, travel back, pick them up from kindergarten, school, go shopping with them, cook, clean and still be able to afford almost nothing, have no time or energy for your dc and no time or energy to look for work. It equals all round misery for that family IME, such as it is.

Add to that the costs of before and after school care, kindergarten and buying a travelcard for yourself if not for all 3 of you. It's too hard on a lot of the people. If they introduce it in a less blanket manner, perhaps it works. I don't think it works here and it hasn't reduced unemployment, just increased unhappiness and resentment from what I can see/pick up on.

Personally I think it's about bloody time!

Don't get me wrong is hard to get a job these days but alot of people are just on the dole because they can't be bothered to work, I have many friendsa like this who annoy the hell out of me, when myself and my partner work he does all day and I do nights as many parents have to do yet some of these idiots sit on their arse and can go out everynight have plenty of money for shopping etc and we are just getting by.

It's not right.

well there's that too. I don't know what the answer is but the way they did it here has proved disastrous and everyone says so even the Job Centre admits it