The Isreal / Anti-semitism debate

[Blu]

MN is a wonderful place where interesting discussions evolve - but personally I feel v uncomfortable discussing present day politics in Isreal /Palestine on a thread about the holocaust.

sophable the posters depict Oliver Letwin and Michael Howard as pigs. To Jews pigs are an unclean animal and we don't eat pork or other products form a pig, so it could be construed as anti-semitic. However the point that I made below was that the link is somewhat loose, and most peopel won't see t. Hence the whole hoo-ha was actually a conspiricy to simply remind people that they wre Jews and therefoe not to be trusted, which actually is a far more subtle message and when seen like that, icredibly anti-semitic.

Like I said it is just a theory, butquite an interesting believable one

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Surely anyone who would change their vote on the grounds that a party leader was Jewish would be voting for UKIP or the BNP anyway?

I still think it's silly - if Letwin or Howard was vegetarian, nobody would have said the posters were "anti-vegetarian"

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Bloss you got it in one!! That is the real anti-semetic feeling that goes on. It is not blatent at all, just a feeling that being Jewish is a bit like the Masons. Jobs for the boys and sticking together. A lot of people feel that Jews have too much power, whether in the media, banking or whatever. Jew have always been thought of a miserly and money grabbing, when in fact they were forced into banking as they were not allowed to do other jobs. They were the only people allowed to be money lenders, which created the mean sterotype that still exists today. This was not in Nazi Germany, this was IN THIS COUNTRY (albeit back in about the 14th century - history is a bit hazy) Anyway it was a strong enough stereotype for Shakespeare to use a lot of anti-semitic casting/stereotyping in a number of plays.

BTW as a religion Judaism insists that we give 10% to charity and Tzidaka or Charity is something REALLY important that is taught to children from a very young age. I used to take Tzidaka into synagogue every weekend as a portion of my pocket money.

There's a Palestinian family living on our street, and I've just heard my next-door neighbour refer to them as "the terrorists". I think she thought she was trying to be funny, but I found it really offensive.

(sorry, just wanted to share my outrage with someone)

Frieda, I can understand your need to share your outrage!

Bloss, I think the difference between Israel's actions and the Palestinians is that Israel is supposed to be a respectable, democratic state. The two "houses" are not playing on a level playing field. Of course the actions of the suicide bombers are appalling, but they're not carrying out their actions on behalf of a democratically elected government.

(Don't know why I should expect governments to behave better - maybe I'm just very naieve!)

I agree - that's an appalling thing to say - I probably wouldn't have been able to stop myself being very rude to your neighbour!

Freida that is disgusting, I hope you feel able o say something to her. I know it is hard to challenge someone when they make comments like that but if she does it again, tell her you find it offensive and racist (if you can) unfortuneatly some peopel don't realise they are offending others.

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I do see what you mean, Bloss. I admit to being utterly ignorant in this kind of thing due to growing up in norfolk (don't know any Jewish people I don't think, neither did I ever hear casual conversation about Jews - all I have to go on is the press).

Anyway - re Palestinians and Israeli govt - I agree. Can't help feeling that it would be far easier for the israelis to make the first move in terms of a cease fire though - they are directly responsible for the army after all, where the Palestinian Authority is not directly responsible for the militants.

Also the irony about the jewish money lenders was that most of them only acted as front-men for rich christians (who couldn't be seen to lend money because of the ecclesiastical laws).

Thanks Bloss knew my history was a bit hazy

I think the Israelis target Palestinian civilians all the time. I guess it's a question of interpretation - I would interpret blowing up a residential apartment block because one terrorist might be staying there as targeting civilians, but others wouldn't. Of course there's no moral superiority on the Palestinian's side, but there is far less power.

I think you're right to say that in the past, there has been evidence that the Palestinian authorities can rein in some of the terrorism to some extent; but it will be very interesting to see if that will be possible now. Mahmoud Abbas simply doesn't have the authority and status that Yasser Arafat had, and Arafat's authority was by no means 100%. So he'll have a much harder job of controlling some of the more extreme elements on the Palestinian side. Whereas the Israeli government have complete control over all their elements, extreme or not. (Although that might change - some of the more extreme settlers may well refuse to accept Sharon's authority in future - he could find he's created a Frankenstein's monster.)

OTOH Abbas has the advantage of a pretty exhausted people who have in the main given up the idea of "pushing the Israelis into the sea" and just want peace. Most Palestinians do now accept the fact of the State of Israel and the need to find a modus vivendi. There is talk of a total ceasefire on both sides being declared, if all sides (including some of the wackier suicide bomb elements) were really on board it could really be the start of a meaningful peace process.

I hadn't realised that Oliver Letwin and Michael Howard are Jewish! now the outrage about the poster is more understandable to me.

As for neighbours referring to Palestinians as terrorists... that's just wrong! Just like it would be calling me a Nazi only because I'm born German (with my heritage being polish jewish/belgian catholicon one side and Waldenser (frech sth lk hugenottes) protestants /slovakian/german backgound I may add )

IMHO people are who they are first not a race or religion, i.e. women, men, mothers, fathers, sons & daughters. Fair enough some people have rather irritating traits but imho that's personality not race or relogion

sorry about the spelling... typin 1-handed with poorly ds on lap

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Well as the Israelis and the Palestinians have just announced a cease-fire, maybe mumsnet debaters can to

(sorry, but I've never been quite so optimistic about potential peace in the middle east, always believed that Arafat stood in the way whilst posturing for peace)

oh the shame

'maybe mumsnet debaters can too'

I am really glad a ceasefire has been agreed but I have to say I do not trust Sharon in the slightest.And also Hamas has stated they do not feel bound by the terms of the ceasefire....so it may come to nothing.I hope not though.

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I agree that Arafat's failure to accept the peace deal was a terrible missed opportunity. However, allegations of ' wanting the lot' are , as far as I am concerned, applicable to the Israeli state which, not content with keeping hold of lands stolen in the six day war, are currecnly annexing vast swathes of Palestinian lands under pretence of building a ' security fence'. The Israelis are the ones who 'want the lot' as far as I can see as their theft of land goes unchecked. So now who ' wants the lot'?

\link {http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1408804,00.html\this} purports to sum up negotiating positions.
Prompted by this thread to do more serious background research into the whole issue I read the PLO Charter for the first time today. I must say some of it didn't tally with the Guardian's summing up above - and made me feel as depressed as I do about Sharon.