The Isreal / Anti-semitism debate

[Blu]

MN is a wonderful place where interesting discussions evolve - but personally I feel v uncomfortable discussing present day politics in Isreal /Palestine on a thread about the holocaust.

I am quite happy for groups of people to have a homeland just so long as they let others come and live there in peace too regardless of race and religion. I am not able to support a state of israel which denys basic human rights to others because of their race or religion.

Someone here said something really interesting to my mind. How can a nation that has been persecuted and hounded as much as the jews have been, support a government who are doing exactly the same to another nation? To me this is the crux of my issue with Israel (and I do believe in the right of a state of Israel, I am just anti current governemnt).

As a jew I have experienced anti semitism, therefore I am very aware of any racism etc, and I just cannot see how one can justify it!

yes true crunchie but Ithink that is teh crux of why people don't speak out. If you accuse a persecuted race of persecuting than that can be offensive - but if it is teh government which is presumable secular than it can n't be seena as racist

Interestingly there is a quite large population of Israeli Arabs. Arabs who accept the existence of the state of Israel and even serve in the armed forces. (I know because I dated one of them)

So actually Triceratops Israel as a state does accept " others come and live there in peace too regardless of race and religion

Crunchie you have said exactly what I have thought many times. It brings to mind the "Two wrongs don't make a right" phrase.

Blu, only read your thread in this discussion. yes of course its possible. Its your duty!!! Sharon was the mastermind behind the Sabra and Shatila massacre, and many others. He is a zionist of the worst kind (all or nothing) and has so much blood on his hands. Fortunately he is that old, that soon he is gonna pop his clogs and someone else will move in. Mind you, politics and leaders rarely change, they all seem to come from the same gene pool these days.

Well, of course I think it is possible - in truth I started this thread because another was starting to touch on anti-semitism/Isreal, and I thought it needed it's own space. I have learned a lot on this thread.
Is there anyone who feels so strongly about Israel that they think that opposition to the current gvt can only be, in effect, anti-semitism, rather than a political view?

I know other people live there too twiglett but I am not sure that they experience equality. However I only know what I hear on radio4.

The Israeli army need to stop shooting into schools and making old men play the violin at gunpoint if they are going to convince me that they are playing fair. I know the palastinians commit atrocities too but two wrongs dont make a right.

well triceratops, I had the good fortune to live in Israel for a year or so, and the Israeli Arab I knew was happy to be Israeli and Arab and actually felt quite superior (but that's another story ) so I would have to say you can't assume there's no equality from what you hear on Radio 4.

I also knew a falasha family, don't think they were quite so happy though

I don't think there's an easy solution but maybe it would start by all surrounding Arab countries agreeing that Israel has a right to exist and that Jewish people should not be driven into the sea?.. remember that there is peace between Egypt and Israel because they accepted that right

Twiglett, no chance of Israel every being "driven" into the sea. They have 100% american backing and as long as those two nations are cozy and have "mutual" interests, Israel will flourish. It is the palestinians who are being driven out now with daily barricades and walls around their towns excluding them from their homes. Get real

Further, as a jew, I find the current zionism reprehensible, and the mad man Sharon to be a megalomaniac with a death wish. The historical persecution of jews has instilled in us a ferocity but also victimhood and I think many of us feel we must be vanquished at every opportunity. If someone criticizes the state of israel today, I certainly do not feel criticised and in fact, I would continue the criticising. However, if someone criticises my faith that is a different story. God does not bless land and jews have to realise this. He blesses souls. The state of israel today is an affront to God in my estimation and certainly not what he wanted for the jews. Jews would do well to understand, even if they dont accept, the new testament laws. Thou shalt not kill, especially in the name of God.

mamadadawahwah, I'm also a Jew. And I agree with all you say. I feel shame that Sharon or others would bring up the historical persecution of Jews to cover up their own persecution of others. I lost every member of my family from my father's side in WWII and the only hope and consolation that can be gained for such pain and loss is that a lesson is learned.

mamaddww .. no there is no chance of the Jewish people being driven in to the sea due to American backing, Israeli army and level of armaments. But if you have never heard any of the anti-Israel rhetoric you will know that it involves the phrase 'drive them into the sea' .. you will know that

I have said all along that I think there should be peace, I think the Palestinians deserve a homeland, I abhor and detest Sharon's government's policies and am sickened by the 'eye for an eye approach'

Not sure why you told me to 'get real'

Twiglett if you want sectarian and racial slurs, here are a couple, but there are thousands. Where do you want to start?

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).

Rabbi Yaacov Perrin says, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

My kids have been brought up without their jewish faith because I believe they must make up their own minds. I practice my own faith and hope that they will see the beauty in it, and decide to follow me. However, in light of what is happening in Israel today, they ask more questions about the "negativity" of judaism today based on Israels actions and I dont know what they will do.

Just curious - is goy meant to be offensive or just a 'not-Jewish' term?

goy is just Jewish for "not-jewish" (AFAIK!)

Thanks.

actually no mmddww I dont' want to see sectarian or racial slurs on either side

and like JanH I was always under the impression that Goy just meant a person not of the Jewish faith, I would have thought as a self-claimed Jew you would know that as it completely changes your first quote into just a matter of fact, does it not?

What? Just a matter of fact? So Arab blood and non-Arab blood are not the same thing? African blood and European blood are not the same thing? English blood and non-English blood are not the same thing?

Dunno about anyone else, but I'd call any of those statements plain downright racist, not fact.

Ah yes, goy (goyim) refers to non jews. I dont get your point though. By the way, not a "self claimed" jew, jewish by blood, jewish by faith thanks very much.

Probably just the way I read it then, I am in no way disputing the abhorence of any such statements.. I just always thought that the term blood from a rabbi would be taken to mean bloodlines not actual composition

although if I think it through Arabs and Jews are both Semitic people so it is probably totally bollocks

I take it back, I read it wrong .. sorry .. it is in essence a racist statement (but not in terms of the word goy which is the way I first read it)

Just to add an interesting thing my dh read. Thought it was good to add to this debate, although a little off the Israel debate.

Gong back to the 'Pigs might fly' posters of Oliver Letwin and Michael Howard kindly done by the Labour party. The theory is that the controvosey was actually courted by Labour as they wanted us to 'remember' that Oliver Letwin and Michael Howard are both Jewish. Basically it was thought that most people didn't know that they were jewish, so by putting out these posters and getting the'Oh my god' reaction they wanted, people would know they were jewish. This plays on the everyday anti-semitism that pervades a certain sector of society, and potentially could stop voters who 'may' vote conservative. It was just a theory, but what an interesting one!! Playing on some people's fears.

What about that for a double bluff Could work unfortuneatly.

Actually on this subject Michael Howard is a member of our Shul and when he comes along...the amount of police and stuff, well I suppose it is the safest synagogue in the country

Twiglett - what do you mean by Semitic people?

the Labour poster thing totally baffled me: Labour have used the "pigs might fly" motif before, and I just didn't see how it was anti-semitic. Interesting theory though, crunchie.

yes senora i'm lost too...how is pigs might fly anti-semitic or anything to do with jews (am i being thick here...probably!)...i haven't seen the poster btw