The Isreal / Anti-semitism debate

[Blu]

MN is a wonderful place where interesting discussions evolve - but personally I feel v uncomfortable discussing present day politics in Isreal /Palestine on a thread about the holocaust.

It's interesting this 'labelling' of some world leaders as terrorist - one of the most famous and most respected leaders in the world was formerly what we would describe as a terrorist - yet he was the very person that was elected and started bringing South Africa out of the dreadful apartheid - Nelson Mandela. I don't agree with what's going on in Israel/Palestine/Middle East (whatever you want to call it) but I really don't think those people that label particular leaders as 'terrorists' are really doing anyone any favours - Mandela proved - sometimes 'terror tactics' are the very things which turn out to make you a national hero and subsequently lead your country to a more peaceful living!

interesting point gwenick.Mandela did renounce violence whilst in prison but only after many years.The ANC was responsible for many so called terrorist acts but no more than the South African government ( probably a lot less in fact). But the fact was that one was legal - the government - and the other was illegal. This parallels the legal terrorism of Israel and the illegal terrorism of Hamas. At least the west did bombard S.A with diplomatic forms of isolation and trade boycotts, whereas I see no such treatment of the Israeil government. What is certainly the case is that some poeple -usually the downtrodden and subjugated - see violence as the only remaining option.And IMO the Palestinians are perfect examples of such people.

Yes and I think that nobody made excuses for apartheid South Africa; you didn't get politicians standing up and saying well, yes, they are a bit much, but you can understand it, what with their history and all. And some of the people they're oppressing support terrorism, and some of them use the barbaric practice of necklacing, so because of that, we're not going to condemn the regime and try and get apartheid abolished. They said unequivocally, that apartheid was an evil, full stop, irrespective of the character or behaviour of anyone who opposed it. Whereas the fact of Hamas and the Suicide bombers, gets used as an excuse not to condemn what is patently wrong.

exactly Caligula.

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Donnie and Caligula you have both managed to voice my exact thoughts so very well. I always end up agitaged and incomprehensible if engaged in this particular debate so many thanks.

It is all down to policy which makes it good to ahve a friendly state in the middle east so if you make criticims about the government into a critisim of a religion /people than that disempowers teh argument because people tehn feel they are questionning an absolute truth.
Whilst we are having this discussion ( I feel both sides should live in peace Israel shoudl stop diverting water etc ) can someone tell why teh Jews as a wandering tribe need to have been given lands Have never understood this bit . Also Jersulem should be a neutral place as it is important to many different religions it should not be under the control of any one nation

You're welcome Gomez!

And Prunegirl, of course the problem with boycotting Israeli avocadoes, or Jaffa oranges or whatever, is that it does have resonances of the truly anti-Semitic boycotts of the 1930s - one of the Nazi tactics against the Jews was the economic boycott. I always have a moral dilemma in Safeway because I don't want to buy Israeli avocadoes because of the Palestinians, but I feel uncomfortable about feeling as if I'm allying myself with the Nazis by employing their methods! (So I end up buying the avos so as not to be a nazi, and leaving the Jaffas so as not to persecute the Palestinians!) But I think that's why the idea of a boycott hasn't taken off - it does have unpleasant resonances and I think people would feel uncomfortable about using it.

"Whereas the fact of Hamas and the Suicide bombers, gets used as an excuse not to condemn what is patently wrong."

The difference is, Hamms and the terrorists are not elected leaders of a state, as the White leaders who commited apateid were. They had no excuse as they were a legally appointed Government who chose apatheid.

How can you sanction Hamas and suicide bombers? You cannot.

Gothicmama .. I believe that the Jewish people are not a 'wandering tribe' the lands under dispute were originally the home of the Jewish people until the Romans came. There have always been more than a million Jewish people living in that area, whether there was an internationally recognised state of Israel or not

oh that explains it then - we were told at Sunday school and I guess I could never get to grips with that idea and the social reality

How can you sanction Hamas and suicide bombers? You cannot.
You may not be able to sanction it but when faced with teh living conditions they have you can understand perhpas why they would be motivated to do so. This is obviously not the right way but it does get attention adn keep teh issue in the news. Especially as teh peopel who shoukld be iniating talks in teh light of broken UbN resolutions seem reluctant to do so

My ds is married into a Jewish family but his IL's don't like what is going on in Israel. He and his DW are due to spend a year there soon and are not looking forward to it. I'm told that the ruling class in Israel is not representative of the population and that the way Liberal/Reform Jews are treated is dreadful. Certainly, DIL and DS are not expecting to be made welcome. The Jews from N Africa (Eritrea/Somalia?) who were airlifted to Israel some years ago are now drifting back to their home country because the discrimination is so bad.

Is it not true that if all the palastinians living in the state of Isreal were encouraged to vote and the election was democratic (and assuming that they all voted for palastinian candidates of course) then Israel would have a palastinian government?

I boycott israeli tomatoes but preferentially shop at our local jewish bakery.

I don't think there will be any solution unless Israel is taken to task for accusing any who disagree with their policies as anti-semetic. What Israel does to the Palestinian people is horrific (although the suicide bombers are dispicable too) and I hate how Israel seem to get away with what is after all, ethnic cleansing.

However, regardless of what some may think, my distaste for Israel doesn't mean I dislike Jewish folk. In fact I know quite a few who are fairly disgusted themselves at what goes on.

Of course you can be anti-Sharon's policies and yet not anti-semetic. Saying you can't is like saying that anyone who opposes Mugabe is racist. I think people who respond to others reasoned (or even unreasoned) arguments by throwing labels such as racist, sexist or Anti-semetic simply can't find anyway to respond intelligently.

Just wanted to say (completely off topic) that I feel much more comfortable on MN than on another babysite I use(d). I have a keen interest in happenings in Zimbabwe, and also have experience of having lived there for 2 1/2yrs (recently - 1997-2000) whenever I used to bring up Zimbabwe in arguments people basically got p*ssed off with me, and either accused me of making it up, or being off topic. It's nice that on hear people are able to, and allowed to use 'examples' of other places. It's nice to see that people can see 'beyond' the 'main' issue being discussed and use other examples without being 'wrong' or 'in the wrong'

One thing that seems to be missed is, Biblicaly speaking God gave the area to the tribes of Israel. Judah(Judaism) was but one of 12, so what about the decendents of the other tribes?

Also, Ishmael, the father of ISLAM, was son of Jacob as was Isaac. Is it not obscene that the decendents of one Biblical man, are now at war?

I'm v late getting to this, but did want to add my experience about it. I had been feeling rather muddled a couple of years ago - so angry at Israeli policies and yet did not want anyone to think that I was anti-Semitic because I certainly am not. A friend pulled me aside and just said simply, "Of course you can be anti-Israeli and not be anti-semitic, it's the govt. you don't like not the people." I felt so much better.
There's a website by Starhawk where she writes about her experiences with the International Solidarity Movement and their work in witnessing the atrocities committed against innocent Palestinians here .

Thanks jabber for the link it was very interesting

Amunette-Ishmael was the son of Abraham and his concubine Hagar. When Abraham's wife Sarah gave birth to Isaac, Hagar and Ishmael were abandoned. So, if you believe all that to be historically accurate, it may be easier to understand why there's no love lost between the 2 sides!

Sorry Marieluisa, of course you are right!!! Too much red wine on my part last night, ooops!!

I had Jacob in my head after mentioning the Twelve Tribes, sorry.!!

So should have said Abraham was the father of both religions.

I certainly thin one can be anti-Israeli Government and not be anti-semitic. I am definitely not happy with what Sharon and co are getting up to, but I'm part jewish and my best friend is an Israeli Jew living near Tel-Aviv and most of the time I'm worried about her if I don't get a regular email from her.

On the other hand imho I think Israelis/Jews are taking all the anti-semitic accusations way too far. e.g. the latest thing that made me cringe was that a UK election campaign was deemed anti-semitic and tastless because it depicted 2 flying pigs with politician head and a statment about taxes etc. promises by that party... I'm foreign and even I go the 'and pigs will fly' dig. Fair enough it was close to the Auschwitz 'anniversary' but... iykwim

It's interesting to think of Isreal being as much a victim of post-colonial -ups in the high-handed divisions of land - I think we don't tend to think of Isreal that way because it is a strong wealthy country.
So, if there is (and I agree with Aloha's point on this) a need/right for a Jewish homeland, and also a need not to displace/disadvantage other peoples, how could it have been sorted in the first place so that the situation didn't end up as it is now?

MrsBigD - I agree with on the recent campaign - lets not forget the Tories made what could have (and was in some quarters) regarded as offencive ad campaign back in 1997. At least it was offensive to some Christians - depicting Tony Blair with 'devil' eyes....