David Cameron: It is your fault if you are fat and poor.

[FairyMum]

Has anyone commented on the David Cameron-speech on moral neutrality? He is a price-dick, isn't he?

Spot on, MrsD

MsDemeanor, that's who he's talking about Jesus. The ones who snotty rich people class as "the little people"

Good post MsD. I think that people forget that when they speak of society, education etc. If everyone went to university and achieved unobtainable aspirations who would do the caring, cleaning, lower but just as valuable jobs.

I don't class the people who keep society happening as 'poor people.' Surely they are working class? Dp and i are working class.

It was the chance to get flexible working that helped dh to stay in this job and cope, and he has been in the same job for 5 years almost. For him that is as big an achievement as making a million for someone else and I am proud. His self belief is shattered- every time he walks through the door at work it is a bigger achievement than (say) sitting finals was for me.

If your confidence has been shattered you believe you deserve nothing. You really do. You expect to fail in everything. You become grateful for the worst leavings because you dont believe you deserve them despite perhaps stunning talents.

Its quite clear there are some people out there who have wasted chances or whose situations are their own faut. It's certainly true we can, if given the right conditions often improve our lot. But for many those conditins will never exist. There are so many amazing peiople out there who don't stand a chance- children who care for parents, kids on sink estates who have never even owned a book, kids raised with parents who are either drunk or comatose; and so many, many more.

There are people raised on sink estaes who get a degree- me. But i still had parents who knew the value of education etc. The very few who do succeed from nothing are of course truly amazing but the odds are stacked massively against that from the minute you get a hge absence record at school, or whatever.

We all have an obligation to provide for ourselves as best we can (caring is work in my opinion). Some cant and they are entitled to support. But bar supporting oneself, the rest- house ownership, fancy car, holidays, whatever- is an absolute irrelevancy and nobodies business. Nobody is better because they own a house (or indeed worse), thats just nonsense.

Increasingly, NG, those people are working poor. They are becoming unable to pay their bills on time, living paycheque to paycheque, no pension, no savings, nada because they are poor.

And whilst your partner may have been able to afford a property 10 years ago by saving like all hell, these working poor have no chance of EVER accomplishing that: a) because there is genuinely nothing for them to save at the end of the month b) because the price of housing has become seriously overinflated c) their rents as a result have become that much higher.

Expat, i wasn't trying to paint my dp out to be some kind of saint. When i posted origanally, someone assumed because he had those views, he must be some big shot from a privilliged family who didn't have a clue about having no money.

So i posted about him getting the house so that you could see he wasn't some rich, smug idiot but someone who has achieved something through his own determanation and hard work. I wasn't poking my tongue out and saying dp was better than everyone else and dp is very working class and by no means 'rich.'

exp good point about house prices- sisters huge 4 bed house 9 years ago cost £60k..... try getting that now, even if you can get a mortgage at all

Why aren't 'rich twats' as entitled to their views as everyone else?

Why aren't tories allowed to have their own opinions too?

NG your definition of achieved something intrigues me: the fact you clearly love him so much says so much more about him, imo, than his house- if that makes sense?

I know you weren't, NG, you're not him. Those are his views, and it's a bit sad that he can't see that a person can be determined as anything, but circumstances may have changed so much that achievements like owning your own home are nigh on impossible if you are working poor.

bb99 who said they were not?

because of course they are

just as everyone else is entitled to then argue with them

I come from a very poor background. One where my mum, sister and i lived in a small, one bedroom flat for 7 years. So i know what i'm on about. I am all very aware of the people who do the jobs that the upper class take for granted.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions.

All that is happening is that they are being discussed. And their knowledge of the issues are being discussed. That's all.

That's fair enough, isn't it?

Peachy, I understand your post. The way you described your DH in his work is exactly as I am feeling in my job too.

However, I think we may all be missing the point somewhere. OK there are people with low aspirations in society but they still have a valued place. What about love and family and their loyalty, the tight knit community which still exists and in some way cocoons them. It's something that others dont necessarily experience.

PeachyBAHons, yes i know what you mean. Having come from a poor background, i appriciate everything i have and material things don't mean alot to me.

Yes i think it's a wonderful achievement to have built up and home from nothing but that's dps achievement not mine.

I just want to be loved and to make sure my dd and the little one inside me are happy and healthy.

Peachy and WW - thank goodness.

Just seems that if a counter view is issued (at times) then people jump up and down screaming 'tory' and pointing their mn fingers, or if anyone comments and lets slip that they're not poor themselves...

I agree with some of what Mr C has said, also at the end of the day we do have FREE education in this country which is massively taken for granted. Education can be taken advantage of whatever your background. YES it is easier to take advantage of the system if your parents are supportive, even if they are uneducated themselves, but it's still out there.

Some areas don't have the work around now as the heavy industries are all but non-existent in this country now, but who is making the choices - we all bought the cheaper electricity generated by the imported coal that messed up the miners and we all buy the cheap milk and food that is destroying the farming industry in this country...

Life is about choices and unless you accept the consequences of your choices and actions (within the remit of how the world is around you and the number of choices you have), then you are powerless.

Some people are fortunate and have more choices than others, like every single person born a British Citizen, we have LOADS of choices and a heck of a lot of support, both financially and in other ways eg free health care, from the cradle to the grave.

Take responsibility...we are adults now...

Hmm. Disregarding the fat issue...

If you have SN or come from a particularly uninspiring background...and you don't achieve at school...and end up in a poorly paid job and, therefore, end up poor = not your fault.

HOWEVER.

If you arse about at school and can't be bothered to study/work and end up in a poorly paid job = poor. Your fault.

Agree Bubble99!

But do think that people can (to an extent) overcome uninspiring backgrounds. My dad was told he was useless for the WHOLE of his childhood, and not very nicely treated to put it mildly, BUT left home at 18 and signed up for the army on the morning of his birthday (his only way out). He has had limited choices eg job wise, but hasn't let it prevent him from being an inspiring father and role model, or working hard enough to support his family.

Actually education can't always be taken advantage of. If your mum needs you there to care for her, or (as one family i know) just wants you there for company , you miss too much for reasons not your fault.

Oh fwiw I am not poor. I have been- very much so- and may well be again once dh is at university in 2009. However the difference this time is that its an empowered poverty, we have chosen it as a route.

I think you can class people into groups:

those who belive they are entitled. I dislike them immnsely.

those who have no real control or belief they can change anything

those who believe they can change things

once you have that belief youre sorted; if you dont youre stuffed

Peachy, I like your 4 groups, belief is, I agree, the key.

A friend works in a Grammar School, in a deprived area. The kids are phenomenally intelligent and have access to the best education in the region, but it is the case of getting them to believe that they can be anything and aspire to red brick uni (not that that's everything, BUT if these are the top 5% of the population academically, then they SHOULD be going onto red brick unis and doing amazing things with their lives, whatever their backgrounds). BUT sowing aspirations is challenging...

Not everyone fits into categories. How about those that are just happy getting by, those are that are scamming the system. TBH I dont know anyone that is clearly worse off than me. We have just made different choices. We all eat, have a roof over our heads, are clothed and some.

you definately can overcome uninspiring backgrounds, my dad can barely read or write, he is one of 14 kids, brought up in a 2 bed flat in v rough area of london, dad more often than not in prison, mum more often than not drunk. left school at 12 with nothing, years of hard work and determination have led to him owning his own business and being worth alot of money. nobody handed him anything on a plate he got off his backside and did it himself.

Sorry - 3 groups, can't count at this time of night, so am off to the land of nod!

I've been poor too, and it's really nice not to be poor anymore! Working saved me. (Not that there's anything WRONG with being poor, or with not being poor, I just didn't enjoy it very much, and was fortunate enough to have the belief that I deserved better and made the opportunities to get things to change )

Agree that people from uninspiring backgrounds can 'rise above it.'

If DC is talking about people who couldn't/can't be arsed. Then he is right, and I applaud him.