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Original poster

Guardian article on SAHMs

285 replies

branflake81 · 26/05/2008 08:54

here

OP posts:
blithedance · 26/05/2008 21:55

Agree with Beautiful.

NKF. It's not a boss employee relationship (I have not invoiced DH this month anyway!). It's mutual service/sacrifice and mutual benefit. DH contributes the money to the family. I contribute running the house and looking after the children (some of the time). Some of that is chores but it's honest hard work what is wrong with that?

Prufrock · 26/05/2008 21:55

BUt a wife/SAHP (IMO) does far more than just the "shitwork". Actually I do very little of that. But I do provide a sounding board for my dh, proof read important e-mails he has to send, offer input on his career (he's just changed jobs and we must have spent about 20 hours discussing his options and I know my input was vital in allowing him to organise his thoughts), entertain his clients, fix his computer when it won't do what he wants (not a huge technophile my dh), listen to him moan and congratulate him on his successes. And that's not the sort of stuff that can be outsource, and I think it's also not the sort of stuff that a WOH partner can do as well- or at least not as unselfishly. I know I didn't do it when I WOH, because I was too busy with my own work stresses to be able to take any of his from his shoulders.
And that's before I even start to think about my role as a childcarer

BEAUTlFUL · 26/05/2008 21:57

I get very confused by these kinds of debates. But what is the point of raging against domesticity? If you really believe that housework is "shitwork", what do you do if you live alone? Do you refuse to clean your own bog on principal?

Also, if you love a man enough to marry him, why should you then try to maintain some independence from him by (for example) refusing to iron his shirts?

blithedance · 26/05/2008 21:57

I don't enjoy cleaning the loo but I do like having a clean bathroom.

BEAUTlFUL · 26/05/2008 21:59

"It's mutual service/sacrifice and mutual benefit." - Yes. This. Making money is only one of the responsibilities that go into raising a fambly.

beaniesteve · 26/05/2008 22:00

But why shouldn't a man love his wife enough to iron her shirts?

Anna8888 · 26/05/2008 22:01

Prufrock - completely agree with your post.

Like you, my greatest contribution to our relationship is being that sounding board and person that my partner can throw the (often random) events of his day at verbally and have it reconstituted to him in an analytical format that he can then use to move forward. Impossible to outsource, hugely (financially) valuable, and my goodness does one need a lot of available mindspace at the end of the day (incompatible with full-time WOHM) to do it...

nkf · 26/05/2008 22:02

I didn't say it wasn't hard work. I just said I don't call it a job. If it's a job then mothers with paid for employment have two jobs. And so do some men for that matter though frankly I've yet to meet one who does both earning money and the housework.

If you make domestic chores in your own home into a job, I think the word "job" becomes so broad that it ends up meaningless.

Sure it's work. And it's necessary work and how families organise that work varies though, on the whole, women do more of it. I just don't think that cleaning up after yourself and your family is a job. In the same way, I think looking after your own children isn't a job and woorking in a nursery is.

beaniesteve · 26/05/2008 22:04

I agree nfk.

Anna8888 · 26/05/2008 22:04

I think you are a little confused, nkf, about what is and isn't a job...

jamila169 · 26/05/2008 22:04

sorry pendulum, i actually do like cleaning the toilet, it's satisfying to make it all shiny, just like it's satisfying to polish my cooker top or to polish the car- pity i can't muster as much enthusiasm for ironing!

Pendulum · 26/05/2008 22:13

I think this thread has lost its way (down a U-bend perhaps) with all the discussion about cleaning toilets.

Beautiful- I don't think I am railing against domesticity (if that question was addressed to me). I don't think all housework should be termed "shitwork", nor do I think SAHM = housework. Yes housework bores me but it needs to be done, so I do it. (I thought your description of yourself "grumpily stuffing the washing machine" showed that you didn't always find it fulfilling!) Yes I love spending time with my kids. But I also like to do other stuff outside the home, that's all.

To reiterate my original point on this thread- those of us who are luckiest are those who like what we do, whether that is Anna being a SAHM or me WOH part-time.

madamez · 26/05/2008 22:13

The shitwork (emptying bins, scrubbing toilets, picking up and putting away, washing dishes etc) is necessary but unpleasant. The whole of human society is driven at least in part by finding ways to make someone else do the shitwork (other than paying them) - usually by designating a class of people as the-ones-who-do-shitwork and convincing the majority of them that because of their skin colour or genitals then the shitwork is what they are for.
The problem with being a SAHP, especially if you're a woman, is that unless you have an exceptionally fairminded WOHP and the pair of you are good communicators, it's so easy to fall into the mindset that the SAHP is the other one's servant and shoudl do everything around the house, 24/7, for board, lodging and pocketmoney, and that the WOHP has the right to criticize the other partner and give orders.

nkf · 26/05/2008 22:19

But the really odd thing about women and shitwork is that they glamourise it. And write books about it. And read magazines on the subject. And generally get into it. And excuse men from it on the grounds that the men have a job. Please. What kind of job do these men do that they can't look after their own clothes? It's what grown ups do. They wash their clothes and put them away in cupboards.

Anna8888 · 26/05/2008 22:22

I don't think that looking after clothes is shitwork... some of it is dull (ironing) but how you dress and look is fun and an important part of self-expression.

What is wrong with putting your partner's clothes away if he does something for you in return?

BEAUTlFUL · 26/05/2008 22:37

Pendulum, I wasn't directing my post at you! God, I hate housework. But I do think that... Um, actually I can't remember what my original thought was.

It might be time for me to crawl into the bed I haven't made.

findtheriver · 26/05/2008 22:51

I understand where you're coming from nkf. I wouldnt call doing the everyday chores my 'job'.
Anna8888 - it's sad that you feel having a clear amount of mindspace at the end of the day is incompatible with being a full-time WOHM. Maybe that's your experience, but it doesnt make it true for all of us. I am a F/T WOHM and have plenty of mind space at the end of each day.

Anna8888 · 26/05/2008 22:54

Maybe your line of work isn't as demanding as mine, findtheriver? It does make a pretty big difference....

findtheriver · 26/05/2008 22:58

Oh anna love, do you have to turn every thread into an opportunity for point scoring!! I have no idea or concern in your line of work, just as you have no idea of mine. I am simply pointing out that your comment

'and my goodness does one need a lot of available mindspace at the end of the day (incompatible with full-time WOHM)'

is YOUR experience! It does not make it true for all of us!!

MamaMaiasaura · 26/05/2008 22:59

only just returned to this. Anna - my sisters i guess. Eldest had left home and the next eldest left very shortly after. So really just me and sis who was 15. We didnt get on then but do now. Mum or dad were home by 5.30. My bio dad was a bulder so used to come home earlier sometimes.. but his care wasnt exactly great.

Had never really reflected on it till this thread. Is reaffirming my belief that being home with dc is best for or family.

Anna8888 · 26/05/2008 22:59

Think you started the point scoring - just giving as good as I get

Anna8888 · 26/05/2008 23:01

Awen - I think it's pretty hard at 11 not to have a mother-figure at home. That could be a nanny, or a cleaner, or an au-pair - but ideally you need a responsible mother-figure when you get in from school to unburden to, make you a drink and listen to you recount your day

findtheriver · 26/05/2008 23:05

Not in the slightest. You stated something as if it were a universal truth, ie that people (no, sorry, women ) who work full time cannot have adequate mindspace to liaise and reflect productively with their partner at the end of the day. And I was pointing out that this isnt true for all of us! If you want to believe that's because none of us can possibly have such an intellectually demanding and stimulating job as you do, then carry on dreaming

MamaMaiasaura · 26/05/2008 23:05

btw - i dont mind cleaning loo etc. As a nurse i have wiped enough crap up. Really doesnt bother me.

Also I have only just finished the ironing, having been up every 2 hours last night with baby, fed him throughoiut day every 2-3 hours. In middle of moving house (go on Thursday), been packing eldest ds's clothes. Also been shopping for new house, hoovered, washed up (standard day stuff). So to be told what I am doing doesnt equate to hard work would piss me off. I am lucky though that i generally enjoy it. Work is always easier if enjoyed.

Also i never really saw nursing as a job more of a vocation. Hmm thats how i would describe being a mum at home.

Little one is snuffling away up there so am going to have to shoot off soon and feed him. (should i mention that i am still excl breatfeeding as well and he doesnt have expressed/bottles or with that start a whole other discussion)

Prob come across as smug, not trying to be. Just being honest about what is happening in our home here. Oh and dp is very supportive and cooks etc, as well as works long hours.

MamaMaiasaura · 26/05/2008 23:07

I dont feel like i get mindspace to reflect at end of day either.. although i do find space to snaffle some choc!

Ah my beloved baby is groaning now..