Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News
Thread gallery
7
Hellohelga · 01/07/2025 14:34

ohfourfoxache · 01/07/2025 12:45

I’m actually quite angry about this tbh. More so than I thought I would be

The people at the heart of this - the babies, their parents, their families - have been done an enormous disservice. Whether Letby is guilty or not guilty, there were massive, fundamental failures in the service. Huge, catastrophic problems that occurred even without Letby’s involvement

I just pray that this is concluded swiftly and completely, and that some of the horror that they continue to face is reduced somehow

Huge, catastrophic problems that occurred even without Letby’s involvement…

Such as?

Surely the main catastrophic problem was LL murdering babies and no one stopping her. But I’d like to hear your view on the other catastrophic problems that have nothing to do with LL.

NotDavidTennant · 01/07/2025 14:35

samarrange · 01/07/2025 14:22

A lot will depend on the prosecution's case.

(a) If they go after the substantial number of other babies who died when everyone agrees that LL could not have had anything to do with it, thus showing that the whole ward was hugely unsafe due to staffing/hygiene issues, then LL's conviction immediately becomes unsafe. Her defence team has always argued that she was only selected as a suspect when someone noticed that she was often on duty while a lot of babies were dying. Not a single autopsy at the time raised suspicions of murder. The idea that you have a really dangerous unit and simultaneously a woman who wants to murder a lot of babies would not have got to "beyond a reasonable doubt" status with any jury.

(b) However, if the case is that these managers should have stopped LL earlier, then the CPS are going to have a very hard time getting a conviction, because the accused will point to those same autopsy reports and say "We are an evidence-based organisation, nothing suggested that any murders took place". (One reason why LL's defence is so difficult is that there is no suggestion that they arrested "the wrong person". Either she murdered the babies, or nobody did. That doesn't happen often in the criminal justice system.)

As a backup, in the latter case, the managers could presumably call in the testimony of the independent experts who don't think that LL murdered anybody (i.e., arguing that they are not guilty of failing to stop LL because she didn't do anything). But of course that would put them at risk of argument (a)...

Against you point b) it is not the place of NHS managers to investigate allegations of murder. The fact that they didn't immediately call the police when Letby was accused of harming babies but instead tried to deal with it in-house could itself constitute gross negligence.

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:36

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:34

I’ll answer when those that have declared LL to be innocent answer the question, which they won’t. They will deflect.

NOT ONE PERSON ON HERE WOULD LET LL LOOK AFTER THEIR INFANT BECAUSE THEY KNOW SHE KILLED THOSE BABIES.

Quite a few people already have answered it though. Is there a target number before you're willing to do what you expect of others?

EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 14:38

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:34

I’ll answer when those that have declared LL to be innocent answer the question, which they won’t. They will deflect.

NOT ONE PERSON ON HERE WOULD LET LL LOOK AFTER THEIR INFANT BECAUSE THEY KNOW SHE KILLED THOSE BABIES.

I don't know this. I'm wondering if the conviction is unsound. I'm not certain either way.

RefreshingMist · 01/07/2025 14:39

For those who think the court system is infallible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Clark

The system is particularly vulnerable in cases like these ones when it depends on the integrity of medical "experts".

At least one of the key witnesses withheld a key contemporaneous memo that contradicts the evidence they gave in court.

This isn't about me "supporting baby murderers" it's about caring about the justice system and realising it is imperfect

Threads like these show people at their most base and instinctive.

Sally Clark - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Clark

RefreshingMist · 01/07/2025 14:40

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:34

I’ll answer when those that have declared LL to be innocent answer the question, which they won’t. They will deflect.

NOT ONE PERSON ON HERE WOULD LET LL LOOK AFTER THEIR INFANT BECAUSE THEY KNOW SHE KILLED THOSE BABIES.

Shouting in caps lock is a very "daily mail comments section" way to argue.

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:40

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:36

Quite a few people already have answered it though. Is there a target number before you're willing to do what you expect of others?

Not one person has said that they would let LL look after their DC. Not one.

No parent would ever let that woman near their children. Because she’s guilty of killing seven babies. That’s why.

And she was allowed to kill seven babies because of the nurses that defended her and because of the senior leaders that ignored doctors warnings.

Sparkiest · 01/07/2025 14:41

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:34

I’ll answer when those that have declared LL to be innocent answer the question, which they won’t. They will deflect.

NOT ONE PERSON ON HERE WOULD LET LL LOOK AFTER THEIR INFANT BECAUSE THEY KNOW SHE KILLED THOSE BABIES.

Someone has said yes above.

It's also not remotely a gotcha question. For her to be (legally) guilty the prosecution need to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. I've no idea whether she did it or not but it certainly seems that there is some doubt over the matter.

Would I choose someone who might or might not have murdered babies to look after my child? No.
Should someone who might or might not have murdered babies be in prison? Also no.

INeedAnotherName · 01/07/2025 14:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:41

I do think it was a clear example of a case showing why expert jury panels would be helpful in cases where specialist professional knowledge is relevant. So things like medical and fraud. Regardless of whether LL is actually guilty, the misinterpretation of medical research is a problem.

Catpuss66 · 01/07/2025 14:42

Chintzcardboard · 01/07/2025 13:58

Wow. I missed that part of the trial … where the police made up very specific medical evidence and somehow put it into the records and into witnesses mouths.

Did you follow the trial, understand the evidence? Her guilt for deaths and injuries very clear and evidence being planted by police …. a fantasy.
Just wow.

Wow you must of missed the part about statistics that were wrong. They made that up. They didn’t include any doctors or cleaners in their list who was on duty, they only picked the deaths based on when she was on duty , there were other deaths when she wasn’t there. Even some of her convictions were based on X-rays when she wasn’t even there. Love to see your proof of guilt.

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:42

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:40

Not one person has said that they would let LL look after their DC. Not one.

No parent would ever let that woman near their children. Because she’s guilty of killing seven babies. That’s why.

And she was allowed to kill seven babies because of the nurses that defended her and because of the senior leaders that ignored doctors warnings.

One has, actually.

So go on, would you let the other clinicians look after yours?

EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 14:42

Sparkiest · 01/07/2025 14:41

Someone has said yes above.

It's also not remotely a gotcha question. For her to be (legally) guilty the prosecution need to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. I've no idea whether she did it or not but it certainly seems that there is some doubt over the matter.

Would I choose someone who might or might not have murdered babies to look after my child? No.
Should someone who might or might not have murdered babies be in prison? Also no.

Yes this.

RefreshingMist · 01/07/2025 14:42

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:41

I do think it was a clear example of a case showing why expert jury panels would be helpful in cases where specialist professional knowledge is relevant. So things like medical and fraud. Regardless of whether LL is actually guilty, the misinterpretation of medical research is a problem.

Agree.

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:42

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:42

One has, actually.

So go on, would you let the other clinicians look after yours?

Sorry, I must have missed the poster who said they would be perfectly happy to have a convicted murderer look after their baby.

Apologies.

JustASmallBear · 01/07/2025 14:43

Hellohelga · 01/07/2025 14:34

Huge, catastrophic problems that occurred even without Letby’s involvement…

Such as?

Surely the main catastrophic problem was LL murdering babies and no one stopping her. But I’d like to hear your view on the other catastrophic problems that have nothing to do with LL.

Here's an article that, quite a way down, goes into all the other problems that were ongoing, even if you take Letby out of the equation.

A superbug, doctor shortages and a neonatal unit ‘out of its depth’: failures at Lucy Letby hospital revealed

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/08/a-superbug-doctor-shortages-and-a-neonatal-unit-out-of-its-depth-failures-at-lucy-letby-hospital-revealed?CMP=share_btn_url

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:43

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:42

Sorry, I must have missed the poster who said they would be perfectly happy to have a convicted murderer look after their baby.

Apologies.

You did, but not to worry. Now you know, you can answer the question asked of you.

Topseyt123 · 01/07/2025 14:44

buffyajp · 01/07/2025 13:32

It really doesn’t

It really does to me, but as I have said on other threads about this, to me it hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt that actual crimes (rather than negligence, which is in itself appalling) took place.

I stick with that and see no reason yet to change my opinion.

JustPassingThyme · 01/07/2025 14:44

HoppingPavlova · 01/07/2025 14:32

@Jeezitneverends Adding another voice to this-I’ve followed it from the start and have never been the slightest bit convinced of her guilt

So, if not even the slightest, you would be fine with her looking after your neonate completely unsupervised, as would be normal for a neonatal nurse. If not, why not, given you don’t have the slightest doubt?

Personally I wouldn't let any normal neonatal nurse look after my child. Even if they had a spotless record, human error happens.

Medical professionals should have to wear bodycams they can't tamper with, that record all the time they are with patients.

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:44

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:43

You did, but not to worry. Now you know, you can answer the question asked of you.

Show me who said that they want a serial killer look after their kids?

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:46

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:44

Show me who said that they want a serial killer look after their kids?

It was @allofusare at 14.28.

Again, would you trust the clinicians around LL to look after yours?

Chintzcardboard · 01/07/2025 14:47

Catpuss66 · 01/07/2025 14:42

Wow you must of missed the part about statistics that were wrong. They made that up. They didn’t include any doctors or cleaners in their list who was on duty, they only picked the deaths based on when she was on duty , there were other deaths when she wasn’t there. Even some of her convictions were based on X-rays when she wasn’t even there. Love to see your proof of guilt.

The trial …. Plenty of proof. Did you follow the trials or too busy feeding your cats?

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:49

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:46

It was @allofusare at 14.28.

Again, would you trust the clinicians around LL to look after yours?

Parent of the year right there!

Would not have any of the nurses who protected and defended that baby killer. The doctors who complained about her repeatedly, yes.

DBD1975 · 01/07/2025 14:50

I don't think this means she is innocent. It just means those in a position to make sure the deaths couldn't happen, failed in their duty to do so, and they could be found culpable on this basis.

PutThe · 01/07/2025 14:50

AtIusvue · 01/07/2025 14:49

Parent of the year right there!

Would not have any of the nurses who protected and defended that baby killer. The doctors who complained about her repeatedly, yes.

There we go, took you long enough but we got there. As for the doctors, rather your kids than mine.

Swipe left for the next trending thread