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Original poster

There are two things I find hard to believe about this horrible Austria story.

83 replies

Kathyis6incheshigh · 01/05/2008 13:29

Neither of them to do with 'how did he do it?' 'how come no-one suspected anything?' etc.

The first is that he was able to adopt 3 kids without his rape conviction being taken into account. I mean, a statute of limitation is all very well for minor crimes, but for rape?

The second is that unless he is done for murder in some way with regard to the twin baby that died, despite all the rapes and having imprisoned 4 people for a total of 75 years, the maximum sentence is will get (according to all the papers I have read) is 15 years. I don't normally go around calling for tougher sentences etc, but WHAT?

AIBU to think there is some kind of institutional misogyny at work here?

OP posts:
nailpolish · 01/05/2008 14:17

but you just cannot imagine what he hs told them/threatened them

they would have been terrified to do anything wrong

oiFoiF · 01/05/2008 14:18

they said he had told them there were explosives on the door and apparently he was so convincing even the police believed it

belgo · 01/05/2008 14:19

yes nailpolish - I think he told them that the cellar would be gassed or blown up if they did soemthing wrong.

nailpolish · 01/05/2008 14:21

also when you think about it he had 3 of her childen upstairs. he could have threatened to do something to them

its beyond imagination it really is

motherinferior · 01/05/2008 14:21

I would think he dominated and terrified his family (I read, in the Guardian, a quote apparently from his oldest son that "some day he'll kill us all) that everyone did exactly what he said and the wife just kind of had blinkers round her IYSWIM.

And remember he was E'sfather. He'd dominated and terrorised her since she was born. There was none of that distance you would have with another captor.

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 01/05/2008 14:22

Naily, from here

"Although he was convicted of rape in the late 1960s, this record was expunged under an Austrian law that seeks to rehabilitate offenders after their sentence. ?The essential lesson from this case is that previous convictions for sex crimes should be taken into account in the case of adoption,? said the Die Presse newspaper yesterday. "

OP posts:
Kewcumber · 01/05/2008 14:23

the bunker was funded by the govt as a "nuclear" bunker in the 70's. Apparently lots of Austrians took advantage of the grants to build nuclear bunker in their gardens/houses. So sad.

nailpolish · 01/05/2008 14:25

ah tahnks kathy
i hadnt read about that anywhere

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 01/05/2008 14:26

I read somewhere that the place where Priklopil held Kampusch was a similar bunker.

I don't know whether it's reasonable or not to ask why there have been several of these cases in Austria as opposed to anywhere else (after all, we had Fred West) but maybe it was the case that pathetic rape laws + existence of all these bunkers = a situation where there are more sex offenders on the loose and they have the opportunity to do this.

OP posts:
belgo · 01/05/2008 14:30

Just remembered the case in Belgium where Mark Dutroux kept kidnapped girls locked up in his cellar. A couple were rescued, the rest he murdered.

An insitutional failure on many levels and Belgium has (hopefully!) learnt a lot from that case.

spicemonster · 01/05/2008 14:31

onepieceoflollipop - unless you take a marriage certificate, both parents have to be present to register a child in the UK now. It is very weird that he took 3 of the children upstairs.

And also that the daughter had six siblings - what did they all think? Especially considering that their sister who'd apparently disappeared off the face of the earth kept returning to deposit a baby at random intervals. Did none of them think to report that?

I keep thinking about how weak they must all be. No exercise, no daylight - even a plant would struggle to survive

justkeepswimming · 01/05/2008 14:34

oh i agree with all posts re what he may have said/threatened/etc. that's what i mean, i can't really 'relate' tho he must have said some terrible things to keep her and the others down there. and yes presumably had abused her before locking her down there. i'm so thankful that i can't imagine being her.

it's awful about the rape charge. would presume that he was also raping other children/g-children.

and is it just me who thinks that thailand of all places or holiday!? was he on a 'sex' holiday? and who was filming him. his 'friends'?

nailpolish · 01/05/2008 14:36

oh spicemonster thats so sad

orangehead · 01/05/2008 14:37

aparentlt the that were taken upstairs was because they were cried alot as babies and he he didnt want people to hear

justkeepswimming · 01/05/2008 14:45

kathy - just looked at that link....

  1. it seems she ran away but was brought back as a child

  2. they know he starting abusing her at age 11

  3. they haven't even started properly questioning the mother

  4. elisabeth was 'detained' at the clinic where they were treating her 19 yr old daughter, so the dad must have brought her out to visit her??? and she was arrested initially for child cruelty...poor poor her. tho at least it's over for her and the kids.

sad that the noisy ones were released, the quiet ones kept imprisoned.
tho was he abusing any of his other children and any of the 3 he adopted?

vitomum · 01/05/2008 14:47

yes, i thought it would probably be for some 'practical' reason that he took some children upstairs e.g. lack of space, need to bring extra food etc.

apparantly he confessed to incest but insists 'no force was involved' WTF. The man is a monster.

StarlightMcKenzie · 01/05/2008 14:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

justkeepswimming · 01/05/2008 14:50

a total monster.

i guess she may even have been 'pleased' to see him sometimes.
and if the abuse started at 11 then he wouldn't have needed 'force'!

another thing i don't get is i thought paedophiles were 'consistent' ie if they liked sex with a young girl, then they would only really want to have sex with young girls?
so if he abused her at 11, why was he still having sex with her at least as recently as 5 years ago? when she was in her late thirties?
am i wrong here?

cestlavie · 01/05/2008 14:55

It seems to me that sadly it's all entirely credible. Any society always has institutional failings that make the appalling all too possible (Victoria Climbie in the UK for example).

At the risk of making some sweeping statements here, in this particular case it seems that typical institutional failings (e.g. bureaucreatic mismanagement) were worsened by (a) utter and ongoing police incompetence and lack of accountability and (b) an inward looking society which respects privacy/ turns a blind eye, depending which way you want to look at it.

The police conduct in particular seems shocking, in the way that certain police forces can be. Denying any responsibility or blame whilst continuing to blunder and try and protect themselves at the expense of everything else. Refusing to accept the possibility an accomplice despite evidence to the contrary and initially denying the existence of the holiday video even as it was played on TV screen across the country is just stunning... if that's how they behave once they know they're being watched, imagine how they behave otherwise.

suzywong · 01/05/2008 14:57

I find it impossible to believe that he delivered 7 children with no medical experience or facilities, surely there HAD to be an accomplice, even if was someone paid off and brought in singularly on each occasion.

motherinferior · 01/05/2008 15:00

Also when he went away on his 'long holidays in Thailand' with male friends.

He is, frankly, a monster. And I don't say that about many people.

vitomum · 01/05/2008 15:01

tbh justkeepswimming i dom't think it is about him 'just' being a paedophile. I think it is about him having total and complete ownership and power over Elizabeth and by all accounts the rest of his family. i woudl be v surprised if he hadn't sexually abused other members of the family

Freckle · 01/05/2008 15:03

Nothing has been said about why Kerstin is in hospital or what her illness is. Is there a possibility that the youngest child (5yo) is in fact Kerstin's rather than Elisabeth's? It would be more in keeping with his penchant for young girls. Maybe this illness is linked to his abuse of her.

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 01/05/2008 15:03

The Austrian police say he didn't abuse the rest of the family. However I am not sure I have much faith in what they say.

Cestlavie - yes, incompetence. Do you think misogyny as well? Both the things I mentioned in my OP seem to show a very lax attitude to rape.

OP posts:
orangehead · 01/05/2008 15:04

justkeepswimming- thats true with some paedophiles but not all. It could of been the control issue and incest that he got a kick out of more rather than her age. As he had already raped someone else probably more the control.
Regarding registering the three children, Im sure even in this country they allow children to be registered if abandoneded or made orphaned, obviously cant insist on mother being present if cant find her and she not alive. Im sure in extreme cases like this one would of seemed at the time they will register children without a parent. Although it should of sparked questions but I suppose with the note he forced her to write just looked like a straight forward abandoment case