Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Duncan Fisher: Stop ignoring fathers when babies are born

271 replies

Tom · 14/04/2008 09:53

The Independent. Monday, 14 April 2008

The only time that attention to fathers is really exercised is when a father is violent.

Consider the new mother who has just had a Caesarean. She needs help to pick up and settle the baby, on a ward where the midwives are overstretched. Or consider the new mother who cannot walk and whose baby is on the special care baby unit, two wards away. She needs the baby's father to help her speedily transfer expressed milk to the newborn ? but he has access only during "visiting hours".

In the NHS you are either a "patient" or a "visitor". And 30 years after it became normal for a father to attend baby's birth, there are still no formal NHS-wide standards for what he needs to know. Nor is there any formal guidance on how he can provide extra support to a mother who is sick or incapacitated after the birth.

Perhaps the ultimate expression of the "nanny state" is when a couple have just had a baby and ? at this heightened family experience ? the hospital says "now you have to part company ? dad, go home". Setting aside any opinions about the father's right to stay with his family, regularly excluding fathers from maternity services in this, and many other ways, has a detrimental effect on mothers and babies.

The NHS does not even have a system of formally registering who the father is, let alone formally assessing his own needs ? does he smoke? Does he know how to support breastfeeding? When my two children were born, my partner was asked only one question about me ? does he have any genetic abnormalities in his family? I was not even asked my name. And yet research shows that, when it comes to the health of mother and baby ? smoking, breastfeeding, depression ? I am the biggest influence. I am uniquely able to support her and my baby and I am uniquely able to screw them both up. Despite the enlightened work of countless midwives and birthing units who genuinely see that a birth is a family event that needs as light a touch as possible from professionals, the NHS continues to commission a system designed for the 1950s. Every maternity unit is filled with fathers ? well over 90 per cent are involved at some point before, during or after the birth. And yet, high-level policy debates in the NHS can continue for hours as if men simply did not exist.

The only time that attention to fathers is really exercised is when a father is violent. A focus on violence is absolutely right, but what if as much energy was expended on mobilising the positive support that the vast majority of fathers provide, or could provide, to mother and baby?

Firstly, fathers would be registered into maternity services and formally engaged with. The failure of a father to show up would result in an enquiry ? no compulsion, just an informed conversation with the mother about what she wants and what is best for baby when it comes to making sure the father is informed and positively engaged.

All health information would be routinely communicated to both parents ? breastfeeding, smoking, mental health, vaccinations. Mother-only provision should always be available but as special provision for special needs, not the default. And if the father is a source of problems, it is no good the NHS just walking away from it ? that won't stop him causing problems the moment the baby is back at home. Fathers in this situation should be treated exactly as mothers in the same situation: extra engagement, not less.

At the heart of the problem is still the cultural expectation that babies are mum's business only. As one young black father said to a government group on children's services recently: "It is too easy for young dads to walk away from their responsibilities."

What happens when a father does not engage? Absolutely nothing. The moral panic only sets in later when the same father fails to pay child support ? then suddenly he is reclassified from a "nobody" to a "feckless father". In the US, where they trialled a simple process of midwives talking to young fathers when they visited their partners, child support payments went up.

Things have to change. When a baby is born, fathers are as responsible for the little one as mothers are. At every point in the process, an expectation of his full involvement should be communicated to both parents.

And this new vision needs to extend far beyond maternity services. Employers still expect that only women, and not men, will compromise work for caring responsibilities. The Government has just introduced a system where fathers get two weeks and mothers get 52 weeks ? the biggest difference in leave entitlement of any country in the world. If we keep going backwards: fathers will be excluded more and mothers will pay a heavier price for being left alone on the high throne of motherhood.

The writer is the chief executive of the Fatherhood Institute.

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 14/04/2008 21:48

The interesting paradox is that a lot of you seem to want your partner there but no one elses.

No, what a lot of us are saying is that we don't want our partner there because it is not respectful of other patients in the unit.

Additionally, as edam pointed out, except in the instance of a first born, most of the time, the father has to go home to look after the other children at home.

TheFallenMadonna · 14/04/2008 21:49

Yes, but isn't that a measure of how strongly some of us feel? I would have loved my DH to be with us, but that is outweighed by how much I don't want other men.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 21:49

everyone i've seen wants their partner there, it's not really a paradox so much as a practical objection. there is no inconsistency.
we know our partners well enough to have a child with them, so we'll probably try bfing in front of them. i definitely don't want to do it in front of a bunch of strange men.
likewise we are probably accustomed to our beloveds' snoring but we don't want to have to listen to yours.
and i know it's not your campaign but you persisted in referring to/explaining it without taking on board any of the objections expressed on this thread and the others. it's just that on a wifies' forum such as this, we tend to respond to each other's points and move the debate along.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 21:52

yes, expat, i should clarify that in my dreams i'd have my husband there but given that's completely unworkable without the same being available to every other mother i will naturally forego that dream.

expatinscotland · 14/04/2008 21:55

see, in my dreams i'd have my DH at home with the other two, sleeping and making sure none of the housework piles up, and i would be surrounded by midwives, nurses and lactation counselors who would be able to come in for every feed and show you how to feed before you left hospital.

i'd stay in such an environment for 5 days of so, resting and getting bf established allright, and getting to know baby.

then return home to a clean house with well-rested DH and happy kids.

and i'm going to win the EuroMillions jackpot on Friday, too .

expatinscotland · 14/04/2008 21:57

oh, my fantasy maternity unit would only have two women to a room, too, max.

the food would be good, too.

okay, i'm really entering the strastosphere here.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 21:59

lol, you're dreaming the dream of a woman with children. as i said, my poor dh was trying to orchestrate us moving back into our flat (which had been gutted in preparation for dd and Still Wasn't Finished) while i was in hospital. he needed that easy chair to have a rest...

and he got the christmas tree up as well, to welcome us home on christmas eve. [soppy icon] oh i love that man of mine.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 22:01

the food was SHIT at our hospital. genuinely inedible, even for a greedy mare like myself. if there's a next time i'm cooking Nice THings in advance and people can bring them in. i did get a little bored of Sainsbury's salad counter fare after a few days..

Monkeytrousers · 14/04/2008 22:05

Tom - ?The interesting paradox is that a lot of you seem to want your partner there but no one elses.? I don?t think this a paradox at all ? a very natural and predictable phenomena actually.

But apart from this, sorry, I?ve never heard about this issue ? I rely on MN for these kind of things. I am focusing on rape at the moment.

You are just an advocate for the campaign I understand, but it does feel a bit remiss that sites like MN or NM or any amount of other parenting sites weren?t asked an opinion before the campaign started, especially when the UK press seem addicted so the cyber polls, I don?t understand why such a connected issue wouldn?t; use that resource too. Even my professors want in on the MN act!

I think I understand too that the male appropriation of the ?personal is political? is what is at hand here and all prai9se to you/them. But be aware, that feminism itself at the moment, politically especially, is in a moment if flux having to (for that sake of women) know the difference between what is politically correct and what is just factually correct. The political scales are a bit unsure of themselves so maybe the timing of this campaign is bad ? not that you were to know..but the shit might just hit the fan quite soon, and then everyone (who?s watching) will understand.

The maternal ?right? of a partner to be there all the time is an ideal and maybe striving of ideals might help improve things in the long run. But I think rights need to forgo needs in this area, and the NHS is pretty good at that already, thank god, in most cases anyway.

Beetroot · 14/04/2008 22:08

I am with you expat

fathers should be at home, or at work but getting rest ready for the nights to come.

Monkeytrousers · 14/04/2008 22:19

dunno abotu 'should' - if they choose to be - all eb it even compriomise...as we all, well most of us, do..

berolina · 14/04/2008 22:20

I had several days' stay, two to a room and decent food with ds1.

Shame I also had enforced test weighing and bullying emphatic recommendations to top ds up.

Tbh I think dh actually needed the time at home, getting stuff ready in peace (ds1 was an unexpected 38-week arrival) and sleeping.

Tom · 14/04/2008 22:21

apologies for not responding to everything in time... I've also been putting a shop onto the site today and you can now buy a blokes style nappy changing bag from us

Thanks for clarifying the feelings around this - what I hear is "We wouldn't want women to have to cope with lots of blokes in the post-natal area overnight".

Could I ask a couple of questions to develop that?

  • How would you feel if the unit was along the LDRP model - a private on suite room for every mother, instead of the ward model?
  • How do people feel about "fathers/partners only visiting hours", with key care skills (washing, nappies, cord care etc) covered in those times?

As far as paying for it is concerned - I think the idea might be to influence new maternity unit design, rather than demand wholesale changes in existing units. And totally agree with the call for more midwives - funding for maternity services is awful.

I've emailed Duncan the point about not wanting men on the ward because of how others would feel (and presumably how you feel with men you don't know around), but I think if anyone really wants to make their views known, the most constructive thing would be to email the Fatherhood Institute with any comments

  • and if anyone's got any comments on www.dad.info you can contact me through the site.
OP posts:
edam · 14/04/2008 22:21

Yeah, how many women have Tom and the Fatherhood Institute consulted? If this is really about helping women get a better deal in labour then shouldn't they have asked us what we want first?

edam · 14/04/2008 22:22

it's en suite, btw (Tom, you may have noticed this site has its own pedants' corner...)

VeniVidiVickiQV · 14/04/2008 22:23

The interesting paradox is that it was originally men (doctors) that wanted medicalise childbirth and subsequently exclude fathers from the process in the first place.

Fathers play an integral part in homebirths.

The problem with things currently is that women are still treated as patients, and often kept on a ward together with women who have had complications or have medical needs due to pregnancy, labour or childbirth.

The side ward I was on had 6 women - some pre some post birth. Beds coming and going at all times of day and night, and families visiting throughout the day too. This was one of 6 side wards, with various side rooms also.

My partner was asked to leave an hour after I gave birth because (both times) my babies were born out of visiting hours. If all new mothers had their own rooms, father's being able to be there all the time - if wanted - wouldnt be a problem.

If more women were encouraged and supported to give birth at home, the fathers would have more involvement.

If I had the money, I'd start my own 'Babymoon Hotel'. Family suites with sizeable ensuites and standby paediatric and obstetric nurses, midwives and a breastfeeding counsellor (room service as it were). Decent food and laundry service.

dittany · 14/04/2008 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AitchTwoOh · 14/04/2008 22:30

tom, just email Duncan the two threads for goodness sake, every view is expressed therein.

and all this chatter about ward design is interesting, but i'd really rather have an old ward with no men at night IF there were enough midwives and bfcs.

if fathers are really interested in helping mothers and their children then that would be the area to start in.

the fact that you/the FI have chosen to further your own interests first is depressing in itself. and oh yes, i heard you, it's not your campaign but if you'd bothered to consult your little women i feel sure this wouldn't have been their priority.

SixSpotBurnet · 14/04/2008 22:33

Two of my babies were born in the evening (DS2 and DS3).

DH was able to stay with us up to the point where the baby and I were settled in bed in the postnatal ward. There wouldn't have been anything to be gained at all from him trying to doss in a chair by the bedside for the remainder of the night.

dittany · 14/04/2008 22:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

expatinscotland · 14/04/2008 22:43

Good god, the last thing I'd want around in a 'family suite' are my other children!

NO WAY!

Mummy, mummy, mummy.

Don't touch this, DD2. Oh shit, there goes DD2 again as she runs out the door.

No, those weans need to be at home till Mummy gets back.

edam · 14/04/2008 22:50

I suspect you are right, Dittany. Why the hell is the list of books to read with children all books about Dads? Dh is perfectly happy to read anything with ds, from the Dr Who annual to the Snail and the Whale. He doesn't need an agenda!

dittany · 14/04/2008 22:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 14/04/2008 23:00

It wouldnt be an absolute requirement in my hotel expat

I'd be happy to have mine with me though. I hated being stuck in hospital when having DS and not being able to see much of DD.

SixSpotBurnet · 14/04/2008 23:01

I think Dittany makes some good points.

Swipe left for the next trending thread