OK, how does God fit into this?

[KateandtheElves]

Personally I am agnostic (I think that's the right word. I don't believe in God but I can't say for sure that He doesn't exist.). But I have the utmost respect for people who do believe in God and use that belief to help them be better people (as my late husband did).

For those of you who do believe in God, and I know this a question that has been asked many times before, why would God let so many people (children even) be killed last week? I just can't understand how you could reconcile this enormous tragedy with a loving God.

I don't want to start an argument, but I'm genuinely interested in a believer's point of view.

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I think that to believe that the Fall corrupted the earth by physically changing it and making the world more dangerous and unpredictable, you have to believe pretty strongly in God to start with, don't you? For atheists (or anti-theists!) it doesn't really work, I think.

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Haven't had a chance to read all posts so apologize if I am repeating anyone. Am not Christian but consider myself a spiritual person. I think the purpose of having a faith of any kind is to help one to muster the courage to face the unthinkable and do what it takes to survive. for me that means being able to find something within myself to connect to a higher energy outside of me and become stronger through the joining. I have long since stopped thinking of a god in terms of someone who creates plagues and disasters or sits by and does nothing while they happen. I think natural physical forces cause these things and we are left to sort through it the best we can. Anyway FWIW, that's the way I look at it.

I ujst had a lady come to the door reading me extracts from the bible and telling me that the reason the tsunamis happened is because we haven't looked after the eaarth so God isn't going to help us!!!

Ionesmum, I'd have to disagree with you. If on the one hand we are 'saved' by faith in Jesus through His death and resurrection, the opposite must be the case, then, that some are 'lost' by rejecting Him.

Oh Zephyrcat, no!

Personally I find the idea of anyone being consigned to hell/eternal damnation/oblivion incompatible with a just, merciful and loving God.

I agree with aloha that the idea of creation being 'fallen' and having 'free will' is impossible unless you believe in the literal creation story and Eve biting the apple. I find this whole 'free will' theory far too neat. I don't know why there is suffering and probably never will, but sometimes there are things that just can't be explained. But I don't think I'll pray or think about it any more, seeing as the beliefs that I already hold to are so 'pointless'.

jodee, I believe that, once we come face-to-face with God after death, no-one will be able to reject him.

It's fascinating how hard we seek for answers. Maybe God is beyond us, way, way, way beyond our comprehension. A cop out perhaps, but I find the constant need to make everything explicable not always helpful.

Ionesmum, please don't be upset - my views must be thought of as 'pointless', then, as well, as I firmly believe in the creation story! People's beliefs are always such a sticking point and we all seem to be poles apart when we have discussions on this sort on MN, but it is just a discussion and not a personal attack (please don't feel that it is ). I agree with 99% of your beliefs, but it's just the 1% about everyone spending eternity with God in heaven regardless of their acceptance of Jesus that just doesn't hold up scripturally. It would be wonderful if the non-Christians in my family could get another chance after death to accept Christ, but they won't which grieves me terribly. I agree with Bloss about God allowing people time to repent - in this life - giving us all second chance after second chance to allow as many to be saved as possible.

Hi, Jodee, I am not upset, but then it's not me that is being called pointless but the sacrifice of the God that I believe in. I most certainly would not say that your faith is pointless just because parts of it differ from mine, every belief is valid and we can't always be in agreement.

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aloha bloss has answered better than I can. Miracles have been performed by a few people other than Christ - which perhaps encourages the believe that those closer to God have control over the physical world.

One of the thing no Christain can tell you aloha is how long God will allow for repentance. We know that this is right up until the moment of death. At that point faced with their creator some souls may still turn away but christians differ in how many they think will do so. Personally I hope that my friends will make a deathbed conversion but I accept that not everyone may do so. I have some doubts about you

Ah, but suppose I want sun and you want rain? Do you we get our own microclimate?
If I came face to face with God I would want some very good explanations from him about, for example, that disgraceful business with Abraham and Isaac!
Yes, I see, Bloss. I was under the mistaken impression that you were arguing that this was a reason to believe in God's part in natural disasters.
I did once ask how Heaven could be Heaven if while you were there, you knew that your children (say) were suffering the torments of hell. Heaven is where you are supposed to be happy, but if the people you love are in Hell, how can you be happy in Heaven? Or in heaven do you cease to care about other people, in which case, I really wouldn't want to go.

Aloha, I really agree with you about heaven. If you have to believe to get in, what about the people born in Islamic countries who have no opportunity to convert or where to convert would mean death? The Amazonian tribesmen who have never heard of Jesus? Those who lived before Christianity reached their part of the world? Those born before Jesus? Children, like my cousin's children, raised in fundamentalist atheist families (my cousin won't even allow her children to go to a church fete - so much for open-mindedness!), who never learn about Christianity so have no opportunity either to accept or deny it?

Or what about those people who sign on the dotted line, turn up at church each week and then abuse their children, line their own pockets and generally don't give a sh*t? Do they get in just because they 'believe'?

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Hi, Bloss. I agree with you entirely that belief in Jesus is not what saves. But there are some Christians who literally say to people, 'I am saved. Are you?' simply because they go to church, so don't bother about how they treat others. I'm related to a man who is an elder in his church and yet beat the crap out of his daughter for twenty years, yet he has no remorse and is assured of his salvation, so he believes, simply because he is a church member.

I don't believe it is trust in God in this life that saves either. If I had lost my child in the tsunami (or in any other way come to that) I don't know that I'd find it so easy to trust in God. Would I then be condemned? There is only one thing that saves and that is the sacrifice and ressurection of Jesus Christ, and that is for all. And when we come face to face with him, which we all will, we will be unable to refuse his love and compassion. And he will not then tell us that we are too late. This I believe with all my heart.

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Bloss, as I have said before I don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible. And I do believe in judgement, which is what I think the Bible (including Jesus) is often referring to. If I felt that I had to believe the Bible to be the inviolate word of God I'd really struggle, but I don't. Some people that do (not meaning you, Bloss ) turn their belief in the Bible into idolatory - they don't believe in God, they believe in a book.

I think the "received" Christian line is that God would have been there in the water with those poor people, suffering with them. I don't believe God is all-powerful anymore. Perhaps the world's come too far for that. Sometimes I feel sure that God doesn't exist - we're all just nerve endings and eletrical impulses and suchlike. But then sometimes I find myself praying! How does that work. Perhaps brainwashing from childhood, or something else.

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Sorry to come in to this discussion at this late stage but I just wondered if you saw the Thai (I think) man on the tv news who said to the journalist that they must have done something really bad to be punished in this way.

Bloss- I wish I did feel comfortable with what I believed. The idea of sharing Heaven with Hitler Pol Pot, Stalin etc. isn't particularly appealing. And yes, I do think that the Bible has errors in it. To believe that every writer, every translator, didn't bring to it their own beliefs, knowledge of their society, and prejudices is too much. The most obvious examples are Matthew writing for the Jewish converts, and Luke for the Gentiles. The Nativity stories encapsulate their whole message - Matt. with the magi, Luke with the shepherds. It's not even very likely that Jesus was born in Bethlehem as the Romans kept very exact records of the census and tax collections they made, and none date from Bethlehem at this time. But to fulfil the O.T. prophesies he had to have been born there. Another example: Jesus is supposed to have been crucified as the result of a Jewish plot, so why wasn't he stoned to death like Stephen? Crucifixion is a Roman punishment.

As I understand it, theologians can now tell which texts were actually spoken by Jesus and which have been added by the Gospel writers.

I have come to my beliefs over all my life as a Christian, particularly in recent years, spending time with some true holy people of God, studying the works of people with much better brains than mine, and through all the amazing things God has done for me, holding me through dd1's awful birth when I though she was going to die, my pnd, and now the joy I have with dd1 a little girl and my baby dd2. And I see his loving grace all around me, in relationships, in this beautiful world, in my children's eyes.

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the bible is not a literal document imo. it is a guide on how to live ones life. written in a particular time with the traditions laws and sociatal influences of that time.

adam and ever is not literal, original sin - give me a break.

constantine gathered together some stuff he believed would help to keep him in power as he very astutley saw the rise and rise of christianity and left out sum stuff and included other stuff - a man edited the book nations fight over and power deals are made over.

there are common sense points and stories in there - but nothing that any decent perosn doesnt already know. dont judge other people cos your not so perfect yersel'
treat other people as you would wish to be treated - pretty common sense
be nice and good and honest and forgiving - it will help a better society.

its not rocket science and people dont have to read the bible to get the point - people know right from wrong however the bible can be used as an aid - in context - knowing that this is a man made book, not literal and there are other documents other gospels other writings about jesus that were not included and they too may have had some very interesting things to tell about how jesus lived. but its not very likely i am going to ever see them to make a full rounded decision so i know the knowledge and teachings i am taking from the bible asist in my belif in god - i do not raise the bible up to meet god or visa vera - its a good code of conduct for christians rather than an excuse for people to say that "god says" a man sleeping with a man is a sin - this gives me a christian RIGHT to b a homophobe or indeed that non christians will not go to heaven - even if they have led good good lives- thats just crazy
god will judge us all when the time comes whoa re we to live our lives in judgement of other peoples?

at the moment i am in a serious crisis of faith that i cant really express very well. but i have known since childhood that magdelen was not a prostitute and the catholic church had always had power trips - just thinka bout the vatican city within a city.

but i have said many many many times on mumsnet that catholicism is the way i chose to express my faith - as a catholic i would feel uncomfortable expressing it any other way - but its my faith that matters ( or maybe it doesnt i havnet decided am in a flux) over religeon - religeon has never appealled
does that mean i am making things up to suit me? well i amnot using the bible as a book to bash people over the penis with, sex outside marriage - i take that in the bible as more of an indictment of the time considering there was not the technology we have today and the society womens place in it and inances were all dealt with differently - if you wernt married when you were pregnant you were fucked literally

if i didnt see things the way i see things i wouldnt believe at all. and most unappreciated is the line that - i follow the bible therefore i am a better christian than you.

good whilst your reading the bible am off to down another voddie whilst thinking about the great time i had having sex whilst not married and barely legal i think i might swear a lot - no dont be shocked i do occasionally use the odd profanity and i may not go to church becuase i was shitfaced the night before

wow a long one no one will read!