OK, how does God fit into this?

[KateandtheElves]

Personally I am agnostic (I think that's the right word. I don't believe in God but I can't say for sure that He doesn't exist.). But I have the utmost respect for people who do believe in God and use that belief to help them be better people (as my late husband did).

For those of you who do believe in God, and I know this a question that has been asked many times before, why would God let so many people (children even) be killed last week? I just can't understand how you could reconcile this enormous tragedy with a loving God.

I don't want to start an argument, but I'm genuinely interested in a believer's point of view.

As I don't actually believe in God, nor as I said earlier, the idea of any omnipitent being passing judgement on the world and its inhabitants, then I don't actually blame 'god' for anything. As I also said earlier 'Sh*t happens'. We should get on with clearing up and supporting those who need our help rather than attempting to justify whatever happens.

Fair enough, but all I was saying is that the church, George Bush and any other so-called 'voice' of 'God' is, by its very existence, self-determining and potentially full of sh**. However, that is something that in my view is totally separate from my or anyone else's idea of 'God' or a 'higher power' or any other ethereal spiritual life. It's a bit like saying Tony Blair is the voice of the labour party. He may well have started out that way but I doubt if may of the labour party agree with him!"

Oh it really is very late, I am talking gibberish again. Must go to bed....

Couldn't agree more wordsmith. (The bits about Blair and Bush , etc). Don't think you're talking gibberish at all.

Message withdrawn

maybe god should save only the good people or only those under the age of 15. maybe god should save everyone from anything hurtful all the time and we should all live in a euphoric eutopia all the time knowing that we can indeed jump of the nearest bridge becuase god would save us or that we didnt have to be considerate in what we do every day because our actions would never be of any detrement at all, and we would never have the need to care and think and grow emotionally through learning experiences and consideration and compassion and sadness, becuase we would never have to experience these things

Hmmm.

I take it, Custardo, that your post is a little sarcastic.

Do you believe in God? If so, are you saying that the reason terrible things happen is so we can learn and grow from them?

Or are you taking the mickey out of those who do believe in a God that lets these things happen?

Joash, thank you for coming back to explain your viewpoint. I'm sure you can understand how I was a little offended/confused about why someone would just post ??????????????? on a thread I had started.

Even the Archbishop of Canterbury is asking the same q. I'm not sure I follow his argument, tbh.

i believe in god and with everything that has happened in life my faith is only strengthened i personaly belive god creates bad things to happen but then i dont belive he stops them either i think when things like this happen people do question god as we as humans only look at the bad things that has happened i know i nearly sat there and cried for them and felt like screaming how could god do this but then i saw the plus things that were happening like the world pulling together to help those poor souls and there family and then it occured to me things happen for a reason maybe this happened to open our eyes and see the world around us for once and feel for others instead of thiking of ourself all the time
even though we strive be be good and helpful it takes something like this to make us realise how small we make our world around us

I don't think I'm going to say this very well - where's bloss when you need her?

For a Christian death does not have the same horror as it has for an aethiest. In death you go to be with God and it is the end of all suffering. To grieve for the dead is actually to grieve for yourself because you have been parted from your loved ones. God is not allowing people to die but welcoming them to a better existence. For me the question is therefore why does he allow painful deaths/ the suffering of the bereaved/ those who lives are full of suffering for other reasons. I'm not God so I don't have answers for you. Perhaps this is purgatory/hell and all suffering is therefore a result of past behaviour. People often come closer to God through suffering - even aethiests sometimes pray in extremis - maybe some people can only reach God through suffering. We know that God is with us when we suffer because Christ suffered for us. For me suffering has a reason - it may not be one that I can see or understand at the time but I suspect that God is in the response to suffering.

You don't have to believe in the bible as the word of God to be a Christian nor do you have to accept the church. A Christian is someone who believes Christ was the Son of God. I don't attend church but I'm still a Christian because I believe in Christ.

knowing how easily things can be misinterpreted on mumsnet I should have said that believing that suffering has a reason doesn't mean that we should allow it to continue if we can do something about it. Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan where Christ taught that it is right to help those who may be traditionally enemies. I therefore have a duty to help anyone in need. Again for me the difficult question is where do I stop and place my family before the needs of others. I know I stop sooner than Christ would do.

The early Church had no buildings - people met in others homes or out of doors. One of the reasons I don't regularly attend church is that I have a problem with the Church owning property that is unused for much of the week. One of my non-church going acquaintances is involved in trying to keep the local Church in good repair and was surprised that I wouldn't get involved.

hopefulmover -I'm interested in your comment when you said - "For a Christian death does not have the same horror as it has for an aethiest." Are you assuming that anyone who does not beleive in 'God' fears death?

Do you mean death as a natural life process or death when it occurs as the result of some disaster such as the Tsunami?

I am not an aethiest, nor do I hold any belief in any sort of formalised, organised religion, yet I don't fear death either. Death is the only thing that is guaranteed in life. It comes to us all one way or another. I don't see it as something to fear or be horrified about.

IMHO - I don't think that it is death as such that people are horrified about - it is more about the scale of the disaster, the sheer numbers of those who have died and the devastation and sadness left behind for those who have survived or lost someone.

I believe that those who have died are now safe and free from pain. It's the pain of those left behind that is so unbearable.

As A Christian I believe that the Bible shows us how to live, and shows us something of God, but it isn't inviolate. If you believe that every word in the Bible is true then not only will you end up going mad, as lots of it is contradictory, but you worship a book, not God.

I think Custardo makes a good point. What level of death is acceptable? If bad things never happened, would we ever be able to appreciate the good? Would we ever have to show generosity, bravery, or self-sacrifice?

re the church, I have huge problems in this area too. I belong to the CofE and am disgusted at the way it tears itself apart over non-issues like sexuality and women bishops whilst people are so poor they are dying - even in this country. But then I believe in God, not the church. I help to run a pram service and when we set it up I insisted that we would never have a collection or hold fundraising events to fund it as I am fed up with the church having its hand out. Selling church property isn't as easy as it seems as much of it is listed, and many congregations find their buildings a burden. However, in the rural area where I live we try to maintain four churches when one would suffice - in fact I'd rather just meet in the village hall. But so many people treat the buildings like they are what they are worshipping, not God at all.

Which is why in my original question I didn't refer specifically to Christians or the church, just people who believe in God. I guess I should just have said some form of higher power.

I don't believe there is an afterlife and I believe that once a person is dead that is it for them. Therefore I agree that we grieve because of our own pain.

But I have a real problem with the concept that these things happen for a reason. Yes, I agree that terrible circumstances do help us grow and become stronger. From a purely personal standpoint I know that I am a stronger (better?) person than I was 3 1/2 years ago. But how can that possibly justify my husband, a wonderful man, suffering (we assume) a horrible death at a young age? My daughter losing her father on her 2nd birthday? My other daughter losing her father before she was even born?

joash if you believe in some form of continued existence after death then it seems obvious to me that you don't have the same attitude to it as people who believe they stop there. Maybe horror was the wrong word but I do see differences generally in the attitude to death. Lucky you to be an exception

Kateandtheelves no-one can have an answer for you, I hope one day you find your own. Your husband's death, and those who died at the same time, has had a major impact on the world. When I said I believe there's a reason it isn't necessarily a personal benefit for you or your family but for the world as a whole. God will be with you in your suffering as he was with Christ -who also felt he had been abandoned. God would have been with your husband at his death and in his new existence. I'm sorry - its the only comfort I can offer.

Er, but what is Christianity but the creed of the Bible - that is all we know of Christ and his teachings. So if you don't believe the Bible, aren't you basically just making up your own religion as you go along? And if you do believe the Bible (and Jesus said that he did NOT come to replace the teachings of the Old Testament but to 'fulfill' them) then you aren't really a Christian, surely? And if you do, well, there's an awful lot of nasty stuff to come to terms with - an impossible task IMO for most compassionate, thinking people.
For example, if the only way to God is via Christ (as Jesus specifically said "I am the light, the way" etc) then the vast majority of those who perished including all those beautiful babies and children, won't be with God in Heaven as they weren't Christians. They will be in Hell. I don't believe that myself, as I don't believe in an afterlife at all, but that is the basic stuff of Christianity, isn't it?

kate, there is nothing that I can say that will not sound glib, I have no idea how you and your loved ones must feel and my heart goes out to you.

aloha, I do believe in the Bible but I do not believe it to be the inviolate word of God. My experience of him/her comes not just from reading a book but directly from things that have happened in my life. That is the God I worship, not a book, however important.

gosh ionesmum that was a brill post - i wholeheartedly agree

aloha I know that you have been through this before many times - so you already have answers. The Bible contains the word of God but was written down by men. Therefore it is for each of us to study carefully seeking the truth. There are also other documents about Christ's teaching that the church decided not to include in the bible - as you are so interested in religion you can study those too. There are certain parts of the Bible that all Christians would accept as the word of God and others that are more debatable. Christ said "suffer the little children to come unto me for of such is the kingdom of heaven".

Do you believe that everyone goes to heaven (whatever that may be) then? Or just some people? What are the entry criteria?

I come from a more spiritualist perspective, I don't believe in christ or in a kind and loving god, but more of god in respect of our natural environment and a force which binds all energies.
I couldn't understand the bad stuff that happens and the best explanation I got for it was that it gives the world balance, without bad how would we ever recognize or appreciate good.
The devastation which this huge event has created must have everyone reaching for understanding which I doubt any of us will every get and the most we can hope for is acceptance, and the ability to assist in whatever ways we can.

Well, that just adds to the confusion then! So what does the Pope think happens when we die, I wonder? And how do you get yourself into that 'place in the mind'? If it's just imaginary, then, well, I'm baffled as to how that fits into Christianity at all!!

maybe the 'place in the mind' is one's conscience and sense of what one does and does not believe.Hence some people feel terrible, true remorse for things they have done ( crimes for example) and other people don't.This is what 'repentance' is all about as I see it. As for ' entry criteria' to heaven - is there a checklist? to refer to the original question of the thread, I agree with earlier postings which suggest that God created the world with all its supposed imperfections - although ironically scientists have just recently ( post Tsunami) stated that a world wothout tectonic plates would not support stable land mass and therefore would not allow life forms to flourish long term - in the same way he gave Man free will.Hence we choose what we do in our lives, we can become aid workers or paedophiles, helpers or killers.We have the choice and the world is as it is.What really matters is how we respond to catastrophes and disasters and as we can see this crisis has brought out the most wonderful love and generosity, as well as one or two bastards like the guy who sent the fake emails telling people their loved ones were dead - and he made that choice, God didn't tell him to do it.Our lives are 'imperfect' and we need to accept that 'perfection' doesn't necessaruly mean indestructable and imperishable. I truly believe that disasters happen of their own accord and that God is touched as we are touched and that we emulate God when we react with love and selflesness.