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Original poster

OK, how does God fit into this?

206 replies

KateandtheElves · 01/01/2005 20:15

Personally I am agnostic (I think that's the right word. I don't believe in God but I can't say for sure that He doesn't exist.). But I have the utmost respect for people who do believe in God and use that belief to help them be better people (as my late husband did).

For those of you who do believe in God, and I know this a question that has been asked many times before, why would God let so many people (children even) be killed last week? I just can't understand how you could reconcile this enormous tragedy with a loving God.

I don't want to start an argument, but I'm genuinely interested in a believer's point of view.

OP posts:
Thecattlearemerloting · 01/01/2005 21:30

Thanks Miranda. I thought your post was fascinating, because whilst I believe in God I am ashamed to admit that I am a something of a token Christian.

JanH · 01/01/2005 21:37

Do you mean why he and not she, sophable?

A lot of my aversion to god and religion (specifically Christianity) is a bit of a kneejerk reaction to some evangelical Christians I know who used to speak about god in exactly those terms - to the extent that they appeared to believe that they could ask god to open up a parking space for them when they needed one or stop someone nicking their purse if they absent-mindedly left it somewhere. I mean they literally would say that they prayed, and what they wanted happened; but, if it didn't happen, then god thought it wasn't right for it to happen and that was OK too.

I also know a lot of people who proudly go to church every Sunday but do not generally conduct their lives in a christian fashion.

Maybe I just know the wrong people.

sophabaubles · 01/01/2005 21:40

i totally know what you mean jan, and also i was saying why he not she.

god is a fantastic, necessary and true thing imo. religion has a lot to answer for imo.

DelGirl · 01/01/2005 21:44

I know a person just like that Jan. Does whatever she feels, not at all christian like imo and just thinks it's ok beacuse she goes to church every week. She is the most unchristian person i've ever come across. She will only help her own kind and cannot spare a moment for others, tells people who are not christian that they will go to hell because they don't believe. Got started on one and I don't mean too, sorry.

However, for each one like her i'm sure there are dozens who aren't.

Original poster
KateandtheElves · 01/01/2005 21:44

He is just the convention, isn't it? I'm sure most people who believe in God don't really think that God is necessarily "male".

OP posts:
sophabaubles · 01/01/2005 21:46

errr. kate, i wish, i think that probably lots of hardcore christians think of god as male, lets face it the only interface they have with god is male in most cases, both in terms of jesus and in terms of priests/preachers....makes me think about that terribly badly written but also v interesting book the da vinci code in terms of what christianity might be like if it had a female face!

Original poster
KateandtheElves · 01/01/2005 21:47

Reminds me of all the so-called Christians over here who voted for Bush for "moral" reasons. They can show compassion for other people as long as they're also white, Christian, heterosexual, etc...

(But that's another thread!)

OP posts:
DelGirl · 01/01/2005 21:48

nah, Kate. lol, oops . People like that really make my blood boil, they really do.

JanH · 01/01/2005 21:49

Oh, I know there are also lots of very lovely people who go to church, DG!

But Buddhists don't have a god at all, do they? Neither do pagans. Hindus have several. Islam and Judaism both have one a lot like the Christian one but they have different rules...why is that?

JanH · 01/01/2005 21:51

And, yes, I was saying "he" as a convention, as Kate said. If we had a neutral pronoun I would have used that. How does "it" sound?

ionesmum · 01/01/2005 21:53

I am a Christian too and would agree largely with what Miranda has said. I also believe absolutely in God as Mother, and I see God suffering now as a Mother for the loss of her children. I believe she is in the thick of it, holding, loving and crying, in the actions of those who are helping and in ways that we can't imagine.

If the terrible, awful suffering that happens in life is proof that God does not exist then the wonderful things must be proof that he does. These arguments simply cancel themselves out.

Much of the O.T. is full of a vengeful God simply because it is an ancient culture's attempt to understand why things happened. It's very easy to take chunks of the O.T. to point to God as dictator and ignore the loving God that comes through once the rest is stripped away.

For me, believing doesn't always make things easier. I don't believe in predestination i.e. that God has a plan for our lives and this is somehow 'meant'. This also means that when I pray to God for my family, loved ones and anyone else (like the people affected by the tsunami) I believe I am asking Him/Her to keep them in his care. This doesn't mean that nothing will happen to them in this life, but rather that God will have them in his care through any suffering and after their death. It is a very hard thing, to surrender loved ones in particular to God's care in this way, because although I am a believer in an afterlife I still have moments of doubt as to how it will work! And I'd rather have my loved ones here, and everyone elses', thank you very much.

DelGirl · 01/01/2005 21:53

yeah, when I talk about god and religion, which isn't often, I mean that in the most general sense. I know different religions believe in different higher beings or whatever you want to call it

ionesmum · 01/01/2005 21:57

I don't know what George Bush believes in but it isn't Christianity.

ionesmum · 01/01/2005 22:03

Jan, the reason that I (and many other Christians) credit God with the good and not the bad is that I believe in a loving God, who created us out of no other reason than that He/She needed something to love, and that such a God does not will those that He/She loves to suffer.

(Sorry about the He/She thing, usually I do resort to He but the truth is that God is Mother too so I feel I need to make this point, particularly on this thread.)

DelGirl · 01/01/2005 22:06

does that mean that he doesnt mind those he doesnt love or who dont love him suffering or am i taking what you said too literally, probably

JanH · 01/01/2005 22:08

Does your god love every living thing though, regardless of race/creed/species, ionesmum?

ionesmum · 01/01/2005 22:39

My belief is that God loves everyone, absolutley everyone, who has ever lived or will live (by live I mean any life that has existed, even those who never made it to being born). God intends for no-one to suffer, regardless of race, creed, belief, sexual orientation, etc. The only plan that He/She has for us is that we will all have a place with Him/Her in heaven, whether we have believed in him in this life or not.

I really can't understand Christians who believe that anyone who hasn't signed up to the same thing as them will go to hell, regardless of how they live. They do not believe in a just God or a God of love.

ionesmum · 01/01/2005 22:41

Sorry, should also add that God's love extends to the natural world, and so we have a duty to care for it, too.

Socci · 01/01/2005 23:25

Message withdrawn

Gomez · 01/01/2005 23:37

Okay I still really don't understand the straight-forward question of why does he let it happen in the first place? Do tuetonic (sp) plates have free will? Does the sea have free will? I don't particularly care if 'he/she/it' is suffering too.. why does it need to happen in the first place?

Aplogies if this has been answered and I have just not picked-up on it in the previous posts and in case you hadn't noticed I do not have a great deal of time for the idea of God which may slightly taint my view. But I would really like a clear, straight forward answer from those who do.

joash · 01/01/2005 23:42

Sorry, had to leave MN for a while and just got back. My earlier post;
...Saturday, 1 January, 2005 8:51:24 PM
...????????????????????????

meant that I hadn't got a clue what everyone is warbling about. No disrespect intended. Each person is entitled to their own beliefs, opinions and ideas, but how can anyone think that there is some omnipitent being 'out-there' who actively decides peoples fates. I have my own beliefs, but am also aware that (to put it bluntly) 'sh*t happens' it's nothing to do with any decision as to who lives or who dies.

What I don't understand is how people in the 21st century can believe in something that isn't tangible.

Can someone answer this question... If God (and by relationship - the church) is so wonderful and giving, then why is the church not only extremely rich, but the biggest landowners around and yet thousands of people around the world remain homeless and poor?

wordsmith · 01/01/2005 23:52

How do you square the argument that God created us all but also allowed free will, with the fact that the disaster of the tsunami was nothing to do with anyone's free will? I try to believe in God and have no trouble believing in Him with horrors like wars, 9/11, famines (which are frequently caused by man) and so on, but have a great deal of difficulty with natural disasters on such a great scale.

One of the reasons I cannot call myself a practising Christian is that to do so would imply that I believed the bible was the word of God and therefore believe that he was the creator of the world (don't think this in anyway conflicts with belief in evolution by the way. If he was the creator of the world then he would surely have some sort of control over it and not inflict such horrifying disasters at regular inervals on the people least able to bear it.

However I do still believe in some sort of God and take comfort from my belief... even though I do not worship in any organised way. Am I kidding myself?

wordsmith · 01/01/2005 23:54

Joash - you say 'god and by relationship the church' - that is a man-made relationship, you can't blame God for what the church does!

joash · 01/01/2005 23:57

Maybe not, but they do their 'work' in the name of God.

wordsmith · 02/01/2005 00:01

So does George Bush but are you going to blame God for him?

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