Scarlett Keeling

[lemonstartree]

Anyone else give a litle gasp of horror when it was revealed that Scarlett was left by her mother, for 'several weeks' in Goa whilst mum went off with her new boyfriend and 5 of her 8 children ????

Am amazed no one else has posted this given the outcry wrt the McCanns!

going back to original question:

how much responsibility do you give your 15 yr old?

My 15 yr old dd has been at college 250 miles away since last september. She lodges with a family as there are no boarding facilities at the college. She is responsible for cooking her evening meal ( we provide frozen dinners to last her a week or two). She comes home by bus on her own which takes 6 hours. She is loving the course that she is doing and the sense of responsiblity that she has. We tell her often that we are proud of the way she has managed on her own.... we do this partly to instill in her the idea that she MUST be responsible for herself.

WE tell her we sometimes worry about the fact that she is so far from home at such a young age. She says she is not "that young Mum". We say that if there anything happens that we would not approve of we will take her out of the course. She says "please never take me away from this school." We hope that the fact that she loves this college so much will make her live up to her responsibilities.

She is quite well travelled.

She and her best friend went together alone to visit bf's grandparents when they were 14, by plane - 3 hour flight - delivered to airport by both sets of parents - collected at other end by grandparents.

Of course, if anything terrible happened, people would say..."tut tut, well of course they did let their daughter travel alone at the age of 14/go to a school 250 miles away at the age of 15".

Are you on the wrong thread, dolally?

Cote

When I was 15, I was sleeping with older men. I also used to get regularly trollied on LSD, Ecstacy and the like.

Guess what. My mother didn't know about it. She had no idea.

(Because actually, I was great at hiding it.)

Doesn't make my mum a bad mum, it makes her human and fallible, like most mums of teenagers.

She was happy to let me go on holidays by myself cos I was brilliant at playing the innocent, responsible teenager.

So yes, Cote, if I thought my teenager was responsible and I didn't know she was taking powerful hallucinogenic drugs and I actually didn't know she was sleeping with someone, as the mother in this case says, then I might well leave her somewhere on her own.

(I travelled round the Middle East on my own when I was 17, incidentally. Got into a few sticky situations. I was lucky.)

You know what I think is bothering most of you judgers on this thread? You can't stand the idea that sometimes, shit happens, and there's nothing you can do about it. You have to blame it on someone else - oooh, if the mother hadn't done this, if the mother hadn't done that. Because you're all scared to admit that however much we love our children and care for them, sometimes shit happens. It can happen when we let them go on holiday on their own. It can happen when we let them walk to school on their own. It can happen when we let them play outside. It is sheer, blind bad luck or fate or whatever.

It's a scary thought, but not as scary as the thought that your teenage girl can be raped and murdered and the vultures will be lining the fucking funeral route, gleefully cawing all the way.

Signing off this thread now, it's making me too angry.

krang - You've been very lucky (referring to your solo Middle East trip, not the drugs). And your mother has been rather gullible. I'm glad it worked out for you, though.

Knowing what you know about drugs, would you leave your teenage daughter alone in Goa? (yes, Scarlett was alone. some tour guide she befriended does not count and neither does his family)

You are wrong about why people are outraged on this thread. It is not because we feel safer blaming the mother, thereby feeling in control and saying "It can't happen to us". Shit does happen. Our children can be hit by lightning, killed in an earthquake, etc. But there are circumstances that are so obviously dangerous that the vast majority of mothers would avoid them, and this is one.

gullible? For having a lying teenager?
Cote how old are your kids? What sort of a teen life did you have? Think those of us less judgemental were very duplicitous teens who fooled our parents with great skill. My mother is many things, gullible is not one of the words I would use. I lied, stole and tricked. I like krang was lucky nothing so bad happened. Although I've been stalked, assaulted and raped twice. Both down to my putting myself in a dubious situation...
It was always about my choices and even as an adult I lied to my mum, she does not know about either rape, but does know about the stalker and assault.
what I'm trying to say is that parents know their kids best, maturity varies madly. All I'm saying is that regardless of our own opinions on whether we would have done the same as Ms McKeown that week, without being that mother and that child you have no idea of what was approriate for that family. Or what led to the choices...
I know I would not have done it! But that's me and my kids. Far be it from me to press my parenting ideals onto everyone and condemn them for erring.
Wish we could stop judging other women on mothering choices however hapless and dodgy you interpret them to be.
And what on earth could we really say to Ms McKeown?
what were you thinking you crazy bitch?
NO NO
I would say, I'm so sorry your daughter was taken in this way. God bless you

Barbara Ellen on the case in today's Observer. Talking sense IMO.

this thread is truly vile. It's a repeat of the Madeliene McCann thread.

CoteDAzur has summed it up for me.

I think threads like this highlight that some people seem to cling to the notion that you get what you deserve and because they wouldn't do x, they couldn't suffer horrible tragic losses like Madeleine or Scarlett's families.

People like that can have little insight into the world. Expressing their ignorance on a public forum like this also shows a lack of decency. It is not kind to kick someone when they are down. It is just nasty to slag off somebody whose foolish mistake cost them their child.

If Scarlett had not come to any harm I might have been judgemental of her mother's decision. As it is she has my sympathy.

mm cote did blame ms mckeown though...

No one blamed Fiona McKeown.

She didn't kill her daughter.

She did behave very foolishly, and therefore increase the risk that her daughter might engage in risky behaviour and/or be at increased risk due to not having a parental guardian around for hundreds of miles in a foreign country.

piffle - I am sorry you were raped. I hope you have found a way to come to terms with it.

As for krang's mother - maybe 'gullible' isn't the right word, but she must have been very trusting and innocent (inexperienced) not to have noticed her ecstacy and especially LSD use as a teenager. This is not marijuana which you can smoke after school and then go back home when your head clears.

I am sure krang will notice drug use in her children straight away because she knows what it is and what its effects are like. That is what I was trying to say.

Of course my mum was inexperienced, bless her.

As am I, as you are, as we all are.

ALL mothers are inexperienced. We all start from scratch every year when our children get older.

Find me one mother, anywhere, who knows exactly what their teenagers are getting up to, all the time.

I'm not kidding myself. I know perfectly well that by the time my DS hits teenagerhood, there's going to be God-knows-what out there and I'll have no more clue about what he does than my mum had about what I did.

And if the 'circumstances surrounding this case' are so 'obviously dangerous', and 'foolish', then why doesn't every young person on their own in a foreign country get raped and murdered? They don't, do they? I didn't.

My idea of an obviously dangerous situation is stepping out in front of an articulated lorry on the M1. Not saying to a 15 year old, yes, you can stay with this family who I trust...

Would I leave my teenager alone in Goa? Depends on how my DS turns out. Depends on who he was staying with. Depend on a whole host of variables which are impossible to replicate or know fully. Depends entirely on MY judgement of the situation that MY child is in. Not the whim of a bunch of people who don't know me or my child or the situation on some forum.

I wonder how many gap-year teens get into trouble when abroad and never tell their parents about their STDs, assaults, thefts etc? I have been shocked when working in developing countries, how hopelessly unprepared many of the British gap year kids are. Some have never been away from home before without their parents. I have never met anyone from any other European country living alone in a devloping country while in their teens. When you meet these teenagers abroad, too many of them seem scared and traumatised. They cling pathetically to any other westerners they meet.

It is not unlikely that Scarlett Keeling, with her unconventional upbringing, was at least as able to fend for herself as the 17/18 year old gap-year kids.

my mum did not notice my LSD use and god knows what else. No one did. I was a good girl who got all As so how could I be able to do that?

I was a very good and practiced liar and actress. I got myself into some ghastly situations. Used to spend all night at one point wandering around Brum with my similarly minded mate. Was nearly raped. Was assaulted, etc.

The situation may be different in Mrs. McKeown's case but no doubt had I been raped, murdered, or both, the daily hell style judges would have been onto my mother and father. Where were they, how could they not have known, etc, etc.

What a vile maniac did or tried to do would not have been their fault, 'naive' or not, and was not Mrs. McKeown's fault. This thread leaves a very bad taste in my mouth indeed.

you sound like my twin! Fucking hell you know we were very lucky looking back. The thought of my kids doing what I did. Cold fear inside.

me too Piffle. I thought I was invincible, or perhaps I just didn't care if I wasn't- I didn't have a happy upbringing but can't entirely blame my wildness on that. I still have some of it in me tbh.

I've got 2 boys. Apparently they are in even more danger statistically. Boys get murdered far more often. I know all too well that if young people want something you can't stop them from doing it short of physically locking them in, which is abuse. I just hope they believe me when I say 'don't go there, not worth it...'

Who knows if Scarlett was like this and how hard it may have been for her mother to guide her in the right direction. No one knows the facts. That's why I get so angry at threads like this. This woman is no doubt in hell. She is being tortured enough. Parenting is hard, it's a long lifetime struggle of negotiation and compromise and yes human beings get it wrong. The analogy with drunk driving, I just can't agree with (although I love you expat!!) That's a snap decision to do something that's clearly utterly reckless. Trusting a 15 yo with people you know is different surely?

(am ready to be flamed as potential neglectful evil parent)

"You know what I think is bothering most of you judgers on this thread? You can't stand the idea that sometimes, shit happens, and there's nothing you can do about it."

My 7 yo is a delightful and responsible boy. Next to his school there are three streets and a complex maze of a junction with cars coming six different ways.

I could leave him to navigate this on his own. I am 99% sure that he would be fine.

But it's not safe to leave him to do it on his own. It just isn't. Because there is a chance that he will get overexcited and run to his friends.

If i did leave him, and he did get knocked down, would I think "shit happens"? No, I'd blame myself to the end of time.

As parents surely you are responsible for your children until they reach adulthood? Shit does happen but some of it can be prevented. That teenager wasn't a teenager in the 17/18 year old sense of being on the cusp of leaving home. She was still underage. I can honestly and absolutely say that had she been mine, I would not have left her in Goa as an unaccompanied minor. I do not think that people one meets on holiday are "people you know" in the sense of knowing them properly and trusting them with your children. They are just people you've met.

So at what age will you let him navigate it on his own, QC?

Would I be right in saying that at some point you will judge him to be mature enough to do it on his own? Because you know him, and you know the road, and you are his mother and you are the only one who can make that decision? Are you really going to not let him cross that road until he reaches the "17/18 year old sense of being on the cusp of leaving home?"

If you let him cross the road at 14 and he gets knocked down, will you blame yourself? I hope not. Because others will surely blame you, on threads like this. Because it's easier to blame a mother rather than realising there is only so much you can do. Rather than knowing you did everything you could to ensure his safety, but sometimes...shit happens. And it is nobody's fault but the person who raped, or murdered, or drove drunk. Not the mother who allowed a 14 year old to walk to the shops.

krang, re "you did everything you could to ensure his safety, but sometimes...shit happens"

Yes, in most situations.

No, not when we are talking about leaving a 15 year old girl alone in a strange country, with people you just met. Especially when the place in question is a drug haven.

Seriously. I can't believe we are even discussing this.

well yes you can sy that but I let ds sleepover with his best mate at mates grandparents. Whom
I'd never met and still haven't.

There's a bit of a difference between the point at which you decide a seven year old is big enough to walk to school alone, and the point at which you decide a fifteen year old is old enough to be in Goa, alone (correct answer? NEVER). And she was alone - there was no one who took responsibility for her, no one who loved her, with her. Her family were miles away. If the diary entries which have been released are genuine then they show a desperately unhappy girl who sounds a bit tired of pretending to be dreadfully sophisticated. She sounded lonely and scared and I think it is desperately sad.

I wasn't an angel as a fifteen year old - who was? But my mother would simply never have allowed me to be in that situation in a million years. I could have stropped my way to kingdom come and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. My mother was my parent, not my mate who wanted to keep in with me. That's the difference - you can make kids do things - you just can't necessarily make them do things, and still want them to be your best friend.

I'm sorry if this seems judgmental, I don't think I'm a perfect parent at all, but as others have said, there are reasonable risks, and unreasonable risks. Deciding that its time for your child to cross the road alone, or go to the shop alone, you have to do that sooner or later. Goa, alone, with a 25 year old bloke? Three year old in a hotel room, alone? Not necessary, ever.

Georgie

exactly !! well said