Page 28 | Dominic Cummings Covid evidence

Newtonianmechanics · 2023-10-31T09:17:55+00:00

Is anyone going to watch this man give evidence today? Apparently there is a vigil in Barnard Castle ahead of this. The shopping trolleys emoji seems to mean they think Carrie was controlling Boris from the last few days. Wonder if this will feature.

bombastix · 07/11/2023 13:31

Gosh it's not like announcing policies without consulting the civil service was a thing at that time...

Oh no wait it happened all the time. Saves all that pesky time of looking at pros and cons, or talking to civil servants.

Still, the time spent on comms was worth it

EasternStandard · 07/11/2023 13:36

minou123 · 07/11/2023 11:23

Seeing as you quoted me, I'll reply back

I am looking for hope, but I'm not sure Sir John Bell is the beacon of light I'm looking for.

If you want hope listen to Sir John Bell summarise the inquiry a day or two ago on R4 morning programme who sensibly talked about what the focus should be in the inquiry, and that it’s not there atm

Baroness Hallett is the chair, she set the Terms of References for the Inquiry, ie what the focus should be.

Sir John Bell can have any opinion he wants on what the focus should be. I suspect he wants the focus to be on the Vaccines as this what he was involved in.
But you know that phrase "becareful what you wish for", well that applies to him, which I'll explain below.

He pretty much says people made mistakes, politicians, civil servants and scientists.
Yes, agreed.

But we need to learn for next one not just look at all the stressing etc (this WhatsApp stuff feels like useful DM fodder to me, no one else is going through that stuff line by line)

Again everyone has opinions on how to conduct a "Lessons Learned" review
Some people just want an overview of all the key decisions and learn from that.
Some people, like me, want an in depth, line by line review, so that we can have a lessons learned document lhich ooks at the full details of everything.

And that amazing stuff was achieved - look at that

I'm sure Sir John Bell knows we are only on Module 2. There are many more modules to go and the inquiry will be running for the next 2 years.
There will be plenty of opportunities to find out all the amazing stuff that was achieved.

Also Whitty said similar, so many criticising or lobbing abuse you need to be careful otherwise people just won’t step up to the firing line next time

Criticising is one thing, lobbing abuse is another.
Nobody should have abuse lobbed at them, and iirc the 2 men who did were arrested.

But everybody, no matter who they are, should be open to criticism or scrutiny.

Nobody is perfect.

I’m not watching, but I hope Sir John Bell and others like him speak at some poin

I am watching, everyday and listening to everything.
I'm not sure if Sir John Bell will give evidence, if he does it would likely be in Module 3: Vaccines.
Sir John Bell needs to be a little careful here.
He was on the board of AstraZeneca. The British Medical Jounal tred to find out his link (I.e his conflict of interest) between being on the board of AstraZeneca company and if he had any influence with the UK government when making the decision to buy the AstraZeneca vaccine.
and how did he personally finacially benefit from that deal.

You may hope he speaks at the Inquiry, I definitely want him to speak at the Inquiry.
I'm not so sure Sir John Bell will be happy to answer some questions the KC will put to him about this.

Show quote history

I am looking for hope, but I'm not sure Sir John Bell is the beacon of light I'm looking for.

Oh well. He was reasonable but if he doesn’t do it for you, you don’t need to listen.

You would like full, lengthy inquiry. Ok your prerogative

The costs and damage of Covid and now this full inquiry with KCs going through WhatsApps line by line - that we don’t see elsewhere is more from taxpayer for Covid

I look at Sweden and envy their approach for women and children, but also for learning quickly.

Hopefully the next pandemic is a while off anyway.

Not sure who @PerkingFaintly is addressing, given their general unpleasant posting.. maybe just to show that a bit more.

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 13:40

Module 5 is about procurement, I am sure we will hear a lot about tax payers money then.

EasternStandard · 07/11/2023 13:45

And still being spent on Covid

Unfortunately posters weren’t keen to hear about it at the time either.

Too focussed on the virus over harms, damage and cost.

I’d have kept the latter more in mind, and did at the time.

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 14:01

Covind inquiry sees another damning extract from Patrick Vallance's diary, about Oct 2020 meeting where Johnson and Sunak resisted a circuit-breaker lockdown. Johnson wonders if Covid should just "sweep through". Sunak made "spurious" arguments against closing hospitality.

Vallance writes, with clear despair, of 3 choices for high-Covid areas: "1. Do a proper lockdown. 2. Use the military to enforce the rules. 3. Do nothing and do a 'Barrington declaration' and count the bodies (poor, old and BAME). When will they decide."

twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1721888999655231703?t=OoXKBrSGzeiXPhSLBZ8ZWQ&s=19

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 14:03

PM branded circuit breaker lockdown discussed in 7 Oct meeting as “medieval” and “whisky and a revolver” according to Patrick Valance diaries

https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1721888461152759850?t=lumjxmlDCyB_m_GaE9wpsQ&s=19

MidnightOnceMore · 07/11/2023 14:13

PerkingFaintly · 07/11/2023 13:28

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Was not aware of this term, thanks for sharing the link.

jgw1 · 07/11/2023 14:18

EasternStandard · 07/11/2023 13:45

And still being spent on Covid

Unfortunately posters weren’t keen to hear about it at the time either.

Too focussed on the virus over harms, damage and cost.

I’d have kept the latter more in mind, and did at the time.

So presumably you are in favour of learning what more the government could have been done to prepare for the impending crisis in January and February 2020 instead of writing books, skiing and getting brexit done?
Equally I imagine you are keen to learn what the effect might have been of introducing some restrictions sooner to reduce the overall harms?

EasternStandard · 07/11/2023 14:19

MidnightOnceMore · 07/11/2023 14:13

Was not aware of this term, thanks for sharing the link.

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Send it to Sir John Bell or anyone who did good stuff, maybe the vaccine team didn’t get enough abuse last time

bombastix · 07/11/2023 14:20

@MidnightOnceMore - it's a useful thing to learn but suggest you act accordingly!

EasternStandard · 07/11/2023 14:22

Hopefully people will turn up and get the next vaccine quickly enough for those who think nothing good happened… or not.

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 14:27

https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1721891449330122812?t=l5bC5vzAAVftnxvYj8Eadg&s=19

PM's decision was regional tiers 1,2,3 from Oct 12, with controversy & demands for ££. Ridley says in retrospect only Tier 3 actually worked:

"It's certainly the case that if we'd acted more strongly earlier, we'd have stood a fairer chance of avoiding a national lockdown."

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 14:27

Another extract from Patrick Vallance's diary ses him saying it was necessary to not make decisions "that then get undone by the chancellor". Johnson, Vallance writes, "owns the reality for a day, and then is buffeted by a discussion with CX [Sunak]".

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1721892972395131118?t=l5bC5vzAAVftnxvYj8Eadg&s=19

bombastix · 07/11/2023 14:30

That's interesting because Sunak was conspicuously disloyal to Johnson. To the point of undermining him. Johnson must be furious - he'd put him in post in the first place.

EasternStandard · 07/11/2023 14:53

I know these are pro Labour overrun threads but do people really think a scientist who talks about the positives efforts of people in a pandemic is incorrect?

Ok you hate those politicians, whatever up to you, but those who worked right through taking risks, decisions, to get a vaccine out in the fastest time they could

I recall someone saying a staff member who worked on it saw the abuse on SM after, I saw it too, they thought people would appreciate the one thing that would stop the cycle of harms and damage, they were shocked at the backlash

It’s sad now that it persists. I take it most were demanding lockdowns on this thread, regardless of damage. But a fast vaccine is no small thing.

AutumnCrow · 07/11/2023 15:27

bombastix · 07/11/2023 14:30

That's interesting because Sunak was conspicuously disloyal to Johnson. To the point of undermining him. Johnson must be furious - he'd put him in post in the first place.

It's grimly fascinating, watching and following this inquiry. It feels on occasion for me & family as if time is suspended, while we recalibrate our personal memories and decisions in light of this emerging detailed evidence, while knowing Sunak is in No 10. It's quite disorientating.

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 15:58

Our second witness today, Lord Edward Udny-Lister (Former Chief of Staff at No.10) has now been sworn in and begins his evidence.

He is being questioned by Counsel to the Inquiry Andrew O’Connor KC.

bombastix · 07/11/2023 15:59

Ah well, while Johnson broke relationships Sunak built them under his nose: he was very likely looking for Johnson's mistakes, and used them against him.

All ridiculous because Johnson had a loyal chancellor in Javid, who only resigned when Cummings wanted Javid to have No 10 special advisers instead of his own. Javid resigned.

Sunak took the advisers from Cummings and waiting until both Cummings and Johnson who were busy making enemies everywhere by their own efforts. Then all he had to do was wait until Johnson made a really big mistake which he couldn't get out of like partygate. Job done.

Wouldn't have been the first time Johnson was done over by one of his loyal advisers. In fact it happened often.

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 16:04

Lord Lister, Boris Johnson’s chief of staff

*Johnson told senior officials he wanted to be injected with Covid live on TV to prove it didn’t pose a risk

*Lister thought the economic risks of Covid “the real threat” in Feb

*early March Lister thought Covid “relatively minor”

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 16:04

Lord Lister is asked about whether victims of domestic abuse were considered during lockdown.

He concedes it "wasn't particularly high on the list" of people in difficult situations, and is not sure what could have been done, in lockdown conditions

bombastix · 07/11/2023 16:06

*Johnson told senior officials he wanted to be injected with Covid live on TV to prove it didn’t pose a risk

What an absolute copper bottomed prat. Really. I hope his show on GB News has bloody puppets on it given the state of the country

AutumnCrow · 07/11/2023 16:25

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 16:04

Lord Lister is asked about whether victims of domestic abuse were considered during lockdown.

He concedes it "wasn't particularly high on the list" of people in difficult situations, and is not sure what could have been done, in lockdown conditions

This makes me so angry I'm going to have to go and do some screaming into the void or have a drink or something.

Do you remember all the threads on here just after lockdown started offering advice, help and, well, love I suppose? It's always left to ordinary women - some of whom turn out to be extraordinary - to support women and children, isn't it?

Here's just one of them:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/3859717-For-those-on-lockdown-with-an-abuser?page=15&reply=94989995&flipped=1

Page 30 | For those on lockdown with an abuser | Mumsnet

Many will be facing the lockdown with an abuser and I thought a thread where people can post for support, reassurance and help might be useful. I und...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/3859717-For-those-on-lockdown-with-an-abuser?flipped=1&page=15&reply=94989995

EasternStandard · 07/11/2023 16:27

AutumnCrow · 07/11/2023 16:25

This makes me so angry I'm going to have to go and do some screaming into the void or have a drink or something.

Do you remember all the threads on here just after lockdown started offering advice, help and, well, love I suppose? It's always left to ordinary women - some of whom turn out to be extraordinary - to support women and children, isn't it?

Here's just one of them:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/3859717-For-those-on-lockdown-with-an-abuser?page=15&reply=94989995&flipped=1

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This site was mostly minimising DV when it came to demanding lockdown

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 16:30

If you were in any doubt about the chaos inside Johnson's No 10, look at this exchange between Mark Sedwill (then-cabinet secretary) and Simon Case (his successor).
Case calls it "mad", "poisonous", "never seen a bunch of people less well-equipped to run a country"

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1721924625058107483?t=TPNOmsS0WHMu1jF_9BWX2g&s=19

Screenshot in tweet.

DuncinToffee · 07/11/2023 16:36

From earlier, this time with video clip

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1721926306911125902?t=Qcs3GVl_-MQT4vZ5HVBRLg&s=19

Watch the ASTONISHING moment, in the #CovidInquiry, when Simon Ridley, then head of the Covid Task Force, has to admit that he didn't even know about Sunak's "Eat Out to Help Out" until it was announced.

"I... I mean... we... <nervous laugh> things happen that surprise..." ~AA