Excess Deaths?

[Abbie86]

Did anyone see the speech given in parliament last week on the ongoing huge levels of excess deaths here in the UK and across most of the Western World?

Nobody seems to care about this and it is not in the news. And nobody seems to care that no one cares.

I am expecting a new born in December and worry what sort of world we will be leaving her. Does anyone else find this all a bit worrying?

Thankyou for starting this thread, I didn't know this about excess deaths.

Re the NHS being closed it certainly was for me and the pain services. The Scottish health minister that awful Jeanne Freeman decided that pain services were superfluous so I had no treatment for months.

Additionally our GP practise has permanently changed the way it operates and there are clear barriers to accessing appointments. My 84yr old friend was recently asked to upload an image of a skin lesion she was concerned about.
You get the offer of a phonecall with a nurse you can't get a f2f Dr appointment without going through the nurse. I worked in the NHS and this is an example of barriers to treatment which they will say is triaging. So I think although the NHS has officially reopened it has changed and there are barriers to accessing health care hence increased deaths.

Re the vaccine my 51 yr old healthy, hill running,pilates teacher DH had two episodes of myocarditis post vaccine. Both very scary episodes requiring assessment at the cardiac clinic. No previous history, still has issues. His colleague also a fit runner late 40s also had myocarditis with no previous history.

I think we will be reaping the fallout from vaccines and lockdown for decades. For my two the damage of closing the schools is ongoing.

Thankyou for this thread

This mirrors a lot of my family's experience. DC aged 8 & 6 are still suffering from the effects of school closures & lockdowns. It's still more or less impossible to get a doctor's appointment. A cardiologist a friend is under (for severe adverse effects of COVID vaccine) urged friend not to have their children vaccinated due to the fact his clinic is seeing so many cases of vaccine induced myocarditis in children & young people. I don't know how, or if, the excess death figures will ever be picked apart, but it's important we keep an open mind and discuss all aspects so that we can try to reduce the damage in future pandemics.

@Lizzypet I'm so sorry to hear that. Interesting to hear about the myocarditis and young people.

Awful how the kids have been affected isn't it? They lost everything school,friends,sport,social life etc. I feel especially for those who had toddlers and babies. You never get those years back.

Exactly I am keeping an open mind like you. Scary these excess deaths aren't newsworthy x

Haven't read full thread, but the excessive deaths seem to coincide with opening up after lock downs, by Christmas 2020 there was a lot more socialising, then as covid numbers started climbing, and worries escalated about the NHS getting overloaded the country locked down again, so January and February 2021.
The roll out of vaccine meant opening up again, so it's perhaps not surprising that as socialising increased and so did the increase in covid.
The thing is, without the vaccine we've no idea if excess deaths would have been even higher.
I think OP, life is much less worrisome if you don't read or listen to the news!

So the excess deaths happen within days of the jab? Shouldn't have been much of an issue for months then as they only started the boosters last month.

Where are you getting 20% of the population from? Population of England is just under 56 million, by the end of January 2021 the NHS says just under 7 million people had at least one dose. even if everyone in Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland had a jab it wouldn't make 20% and I don't think their take up was that high.

Can they tell whether myocarditis caused by vaccine or COVID?

Excess deaths are down hugely from the height of covid. People are still dying from covid I assume though so I'd have thought that was probably responsible for there still being an excess on 5 years ago when it didn't exist.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/

My 36 year old husband also developed myocarditis just after his vaccine. I'm now very cautious.

"A cardiologist a friend is under (for severe adverse effects of COVID vaccine) urged friend not to have their children vaccinated due to the fact his clinic is seeing so many cases of vaccine induced myocarditis in children & young people."

If that is the case, firstly that is shocking, but secondly, why hasn't he spoken up about the large number of vaccine harms his clinic is seeing?

I have no idea. Maybe he has tried? I remember hearing a discussion on radio 4 (probably a year or more ago now) and they were saying it was basically accepted that the vaccines were causing myocarditis in some children (particularly male teenagers if I remember correctly) but that they were hopeful that the cases would be self limiting with no long term damage, but that they couldn't know this without longer term follow-up. I don't know what that follow-up has shown.

If they are so certain that the vaccine is safe, why were there so many instances of denying a debate in the House?
Why did MPs leave the chamber the first time AB attempted to bring it up in Parliament?
Why was the House so poorly attended when AB was finally allowed to speak?

Given that huge numbers worldwide had this new fast tracked vaccine, without the usual testing process, why wouldn’t discussions about how it panned out be permitted?

If the research and stats bear out the assertion that it is safe and works, surely a thorough examination and free discussion is the way to put the doubts to bed?

It is now too easy for the authorities to close down discussion by waving the “disinformation” card, or dismissing people as conspiracy theorists.

AB might not be everyone's cup of tea but he has been courageous and persistent in this matter, even if I disagree with him on most things.
If he is wrong, it would be better to thrash it out and prove it, rather than just shut him down.

If they are so certain that the vaccine is safe, why were there so many instances of denying a debate in the House?

I'm not clear when you allege this happened. There have been at least five debates in Westminster Hall triggered by e-petitions, many other parliamentary debates, many questions and much committee work.

Why was the House so poorly attended when AB was finally allowed to speak?

Adjournment debates are generally poorly attended.

Given that huge numbers worldwide had this new fast tracked vaccine, without the usual testing process, why wouldn’t discussions about how it panned out be permitted?

This is, of course, misinformation, The vaccines went through the usual testing process in full. No steps were skipped. They went through exactly the same layers of review and testing as any other vaccine.

So how were they able to get it done faster than normal?

Firstly, funding. It costs a lot of money to create a vaccine. This leads to hesitancy in funding vaccine development efforts. However, in this case governments and others were providing huge sums of money to take away the cost constraints.

Secondly, companies normally wait until a vaccine is approved before starting manufacture. In this case, funding was available to allow them to create millions of doses prior to approval. Of course, these doses were not distributed until they were approved.

Thirdly, the clinical trials. There are three phases to clinical trials. Normally, companies wait until a phase is complete before they start planning the next phase. This can result in a one- or two-year gap between phases. These gaps were eliminated so that the phases could run back-to-back. However, each phase ran for the normal length of time and was completed as usual.

There are other factors but those are the main ones. But the important point is that the vaccine went through the usual testing process in full.

The problem is that there are a lot of people, including Bridgen, who peddle disinformation. To say so isn't "shutting down discussion". No-one has a problem with a discussion using actual facts and genuine statistics. However, a sensible discussion based on made up facts and statistics is not possible.

I believe that Andrew Bridgen had requested a debate on excess deaths on many occasions over the last year, with all requests refused until now.

Also the vaccine was approved for the first couple of years only under EUA, although full approval has now been given in many countries.

The clinical trials, due to the compressed timescale, were unable to measure any potential longer term safety signals from the vaccines. I believe that in the Pfizer trial, Pfizer unblinded the control group after just 2 months. This is very bad practice, and why on earth would they do this?

Despite this, in the short time that the trial did run, the all cause mortality was higher in the vaccinated group than the placebo group. I believe that deaths from cardiac conditions were 4 in the vaccine group compared to just 1 in the placebo group. This should have been a huge cause for concern, and is perhaps why the FDA and Pfizer tried to keep the trial data a secret for 75 years, until a court in the US overturned this, making the trial data more accessible.

And I notice that lots of senior researchers and doctors have deep concerns about the way in which the Pfizer trial was run. One such example is here:

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Or that the Pfizer vaccine administered to the public was manufactured in a different way to the vaccines that went through trial.

https://twitter.com/ABridgen/status/1688939446186455041

I notice with the funding for the vaccines, that governments provided much of the funding (we did - it was taxpayers cash), but all of the profits remain with the pharmaceutical companies. Yet the liability for any adverse events rests with the taxpayer, since the pharma companies made governments sign waivers so that they carried no liability. You okay with this?

And we still haven't mentioned if not the vaccines, then what is causing all of those excess deaths, a large proportion of which seem to be cardiac related?

You still have not said which of the data that Andrew Bridgen presented, you think is false and why?

I can't understand why, given their very poor record for fines, fraud and scandals involving approved products that are found at a later date do be great harm (Vioxx, Thalidomide etc), people do not seem suspicious of the motives of big pharma. People seem surprised when they discover that their motives are to generate profits for their shareholders. Nothing more, nothing less. Very little to do with what is best for public health.

Agree with the above.
This is precisely why this subject should be debated, so that arguments can be upheld or refuted.
But using verbs like “peddling” implies that AB and others are acting in bad faith.
The word “disinformation” itself is also loaded.

AB and John Campbell and others are able to quote research and statistics front independent bodies with which to support their claims.
Why should we believe one set of information over another, given many of the above points?

And again, vaccine manufacturers have been granted exemption from liability in the event of “adverse events” (apart from wilful misconduct in the USA - where vaccines were also mandatory in certain circumstances)
AIBU to find that a bit significant?

A lot of what has been called by the media and various governments mis-information, or dis-information over the last three years has now been proven to be true, most likely true, or has some basis in truth. The governments and the mainstream media have often been the biggest spreaders of dis-information over the last few years, to the extent that I am surprised that anyone actually believes a word they say any more.

As the old adage goes: What's the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth - about 6 months.

Can you please provide evidence to support your assertion 'A lot of what has been called by the media and various governments mis-information, or dis-information over the last three years has now been proven to be true, most likely true, or has some basis in truth'?

I haven't got time to list it all as I'd be here all day, but the lab leak theory that was covered up in the early days and smeared as dis-information is now the most likely theory with the former head of the CDC Robert Redfield saying as much at the congressional hearings.

Naturally acquired immunity was dismissed as a thing for Covid-19 but many scientific studies have since proved that naturally acquired immunity is far more robust that vaccine acquired immunity.

People like President Biden said that 'you're not going to get Covid if you have these vaccines'. CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said 'vaccinated people do not carry the virus, do not get sick' etc.

Tongue in cheek summary of what some might say is a whole load of official and media dis-information here:

https://x.com/goddeketal/status/1708607780754530442?s=20

Would be funny if it had not caused so much damage.

then what is causing all of those excess deaths, a large proportion of which seem to be cardiac related?

You don’t suppose it could be the highly contagious cardiovascular disease that people are repeatedly catching?

Myocarditis is more common and more severe from catching covid than from getting the vaccine. We’ve known that covid causes moderate to severe myocarditis that hospitalised children and young people since 2020.

given that we’ve let covid rip through schools with few effective mitigations and that uptake of the vaccine in children and young people is very low, I’m not particularly surprised that there’s an increase in children presenting with myocarditis. It’s completely predictable.

You mean the one that didn't show any significant indications for Cardiology related deaths in 2020, the year before the vaccines when it was most prevalent and serious?

You might want to look at this study then:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36006288/

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2020/09/03/what-covid-19-is-doing-to-the-heart-even-after-recovery

https://heart.bmj.com/content/106/15/1132

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268448v1

https://www.myocarditisfoundation.org/covid-19-myocarditis-in-children/

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-09-03/one-third-of-coronavirus-positive-big-ten-athletes-diagnosed-with-myocarditis

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(22)00087-4/fulltext

This should get you started all from pre vaccine roll out. I have more if you want. There are plenty more where these came from although the myocarditis in college athletes has shaken out a bit since then I believe. It is definitely not as high as the studies in 2020 suggested.

It’s always interesting that nobody is particularly bothered about the huge experiment we carried out on kids by letting them get as much covid as possible for herd immunity, while knowing early on that covid 19 was causing issues even in people with mild infections.

Read that before doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know. I said myocarditis post vax was less likely than post covid and more likely to be mild. Not that it wasn’t a possibility at all.

Considering that Andrew Bridgen suggested that everyone in England was automatically eligible for an Irish passport, I'm not inclined to believe him on anything. He is not intelligent enough to understand research methodology and immunology.