Archbishop says Sharia law in this country is unavoidable

[spokette]

Really?

Well if it does happen (heaven help us if it does), guess who will lose out because it certainly won't be the men.

There are over 50 muslim countries in the world so if someone wants to observe sharia law, I'm sure one of them will accommodate their lifestyle choice.

My parents came from Jamaica in the 1960s and even though they retained their culture, they observed British law.

My personal opinion is that Sharia law is incompatible in a country where laws are in place to protect and uphold the rights of women because it is usually women who receive a raw deal.

There was a documentary shown a few years ago which followed a female lawyer in an African country (cannot remember which one - might have been Nigeria) who adjudicated over cases where women seeked redress in civil courts whilst their husbands went to the Sharia courts. It made me thankful to live in this country.

Also remember the case of the Muslim woman in Nigeria who was sentenced to death for having an affair with a married man which resulted in a child? He was given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

Newsnight is devoting the whole of its programme to this subject tonight. On now.

pmsl at Jeremy Paxman

"How do you solve a problem like Shariah?"

I'll get my coat.

my apologies as i have not read this thread.

I applaud the archbishop of canterbury for engaging with the question of multiculturalism, religion and secular law as he has in his paper.

i deplore the kneejerk, ill-informed, islamophobic reaction to this.

Who is the very angry man on Paxo's left?

GORGEOUS muslim french man talking so much sense on newsnight tonight.

he is a scaremongering racist thick idiot. imo of course

I rather thought so too sophable but only saw the last 5 mins or so.

I was in bed before Newsnight!

I know that Hirsi-Ali is talking abotu Somalia in her personal expereince. But she has done far more research on the subject that either you or I - is happens in the near east as well - it happens in the UK fgs, though girls are mostly taken on 'holiday' to get it done, they are still Briti8sh citizens.

Cote, I cannot agree with you that this practice 'has nothing to do with Islam', it might not be an explicitly prescribed Islamic practice as far as the Koran goes, but it is part of global Islamic culture and is performed in the name of Islam. I am not tryingf to construct a bland good/bad argument here, which I think you think I am trying to do; it is extremely complex..

And the GM issue is a bit of a distraction to be honest. Sharia routinely punishes women who have been raped for instance, and this is not 'restricted' to the African Islamic states.

Sophable - i agree.

J paxman's interrupting and cutting across the professor of islamic studies from oxford university was disgraceful, and exactly an example as to why thoughtful analysis of Rowan Williams' (admittedly convoluted) message is impossible and why thoughtful progressive muslims stand no chance of being heard.

Agree Blu. It was incredibly frustrating.

Monkeytrousers, there are horrific instances of child abuse in the guise of "exorcisms" being carried out in the name of Christianity in African churches in both Africa and in London.

As far as I know, nobody is extrapolating from this to say that we should be concerned about Christianity's influence in this country.

I am bewildered as to why you should be making this kind of false extrapolation with regard to female genital mutilation and Islam, but I think it is profoundly unhelpful in the context of this debate.

[thunk]

THANK YOU iorek. thank you.

Very well said IB.

MT, I'm genuinely interested to know how you think sharia practice could be outlawed in the UK without

a)causing terrible damage to community relations,
b) further isolating the most vulnerable Muslim women,
c) contravening European human rights law, and
d) rupturing some of the most fundamental principles of Western jurisprudence.

No-one is arguing that the most hardline/woman-hating aspects of sharia law are in any way OK, but that is NOT what RW was talking about.

You are right iorek, but that is because there is a definite seperstion between chuch and state and law in ths country, with regards to Christianisy. Those practices are criminal activites. There is no such seperation within Sharia.

PW, the implematation of such a policy would need a thinktank behibd it, not a mum just trying to work out the basics in her own head on a parenting forum.

I make the linko between FGM because Muslim feminists make the link, not because I have drempt it up

Soph, who was racist? Paxman?

How is calling people racist contributing to, as Blu says, a thoughtful analysis of the subject?

It may be that we are all of us igniorant in our own ways on this subject, you^ just as much as I, but our perspectives differ. Discussing the issue is a way to sort out these biases and perspectives. I am trying to be led by the Muslim feminists I have read and by Amnesty International reports not what I read in the newspapers or from the personal wish that we could all live togather in perfect harmony.

Anmesty International tells us that girls, women and homosexuals are at great risk from abuses under Sharia. I don't often support slippery slope arguments, but I think a line should be drawn here.

People must live by the law of the land in Islamic states. My argument is that teh same should apply in liberal; democracies. There is nothing tacitly racist about that.

MT - I think Sophable was referring to Murray, not Paxman.

And i thnk he is racist in addition to the angry unconsidered bile about muslims he was allowed to spout, uninterrupted, last night. Racism is a red herring in this debate, i think.

Except that as many muslims in this country are frequently subjected to racism as a result of thier ethnicity, the feeling of embattlement must be compounded by the hysteria which routinely erupts in the centre of any discussion which touches on any matters to do with islam.

Throughout this debate, representatives of muslim organisations, clerics, scholars and MPs have all said they do not want and would not advocate for a parallel legal system...and that they are able to find ways to accommodate the codes of muslim life fully within british law. Neither RW nor any muslims except very extremist minorities have called for the intrduction of shariah codes as a law superceding UK law. Even Hizbut tahir has said they do not wish to see the UK laws changed in relation to RW's statement!

That is comforting to hear, Blu.

Do you know if it's possioble to rewatch stuff from last night on sky + - we just got it and I have no idea if you can do that?

Don't know - I have have just mastered 'watch again' on BBC, but we don't have sky.

tbh, it was a very short and very uninformative piece, anyway - as far as i could see newsnight did not devote the entire programme to it - they had a very short discussion, inviting statements from the furious and very right wing Murray from the r Wing think Tank Something for Social Cohesion, who argued entirely as if it was the case that both RW and the majority of british muslims wnated to introduce sharia as a parallell justice system / law, Mr ramadanm the Prof of islamic Studies at oxford, who was trying to say that he nor many other muslims wanted such a thing, that RW had not said such a thing, but that threre was a case to discuss whether legal UK marriages could happen in mosques as they can in CoE churches and synagogues (i.e to achieve parity in that particular case)...but was shouted down asnd repeatedly interrupted by Paxman who kept shouting 'but what about the punsihment for apostacy' repeatedly - which was irrelvant because no-one has suggested introducing any such thing as a legal entity - and a Bishop (I forget who) who was trying to explain RW's pov, but failing because he wasn't given time, and so saying how appalled he was that the whole thing had been whipped up by the media and turned into a polarised irrational discussion.

The Guardian today is quite good about the whole thing, I think.

But MT - your comment to Pukkapatch when she said she hopes sharia is not introduced here - why would she or 'most' muslim women need to say that 'in secret'? All the muslim people I know - men and women - are openly not in support of any legal implementation of sharia here. All the leading muslim organisations have said the same thing. I don't think the majority of muslim women in Britain speak in fear of their lives! Some do. We know that. That is not right, but your argument does come across as if no muslim woman has a voice of her own and you must crusade on her behalf!

Are women allowed to sit on Britain's current Sharia courts?

Very good point 'DullWitch' - if they aren't allowed then there should be absolutely no tolerance of this system let alone suggesting it is acknowledged as an alternative justice system in this country.

Good point Dullwitch - good job that the informal structure RW was talking about bears no relation to the actual justice system - and would ,in any case be voluntary.

God, this thread shows exactly how hysteria escalates and misinformation persists.

I meant that the majority of Muslim women reside in Islamic states Blu.

I do agree with your point re- the media. What we desperately need is a calm debate about this, not the usual hysteria that comes at us from the media. I don't know if we will ever gets it.

It isn't the first time the media should be asked to think in who's best interests is it to polarise debate so much.

It?s a bit like something someone said tome the other day ? if you try to discuss (in the example he was thinking about it was something I was writing and having trouble with) something in the wider, bigger picture it?s pretty easy, nigh on inevitable, that it will come out as a polemic. If you break it down it?s much easier to keep it under control. I know I am guilty of sometimes seeing this issue in its bigger picture but also know it isn?t that helpful to do so. Still, I?m learning.

Ah, MT - I see - (re majority of women in actual islamic states).

yes

But it is the extreme element which scares people and gets everyone up in arms because all we see of islam is shock and horror and we are woefully uneducated on the subject.I myself have been appalled ay my own knee jerk reaction to this story and tbh feel like a racist tory and I consider myself reasonably politically aware and thought I was quite liberal .It is going to cause tensions where we could well do without them