Archbishop says Sharia law in this country is unavoidable

[spokette]

Really?

Well if it does happen (heaven help us if it does), guess who will lose out because it certainly won't be the men.

There are over 50 muslim countries in the world so if someone wants to observe sharia law, I'm sure one of them will accommodate their lifestyle choice.

My parents came from Jamaica in the 1960s and even though they retained their culture, they observed British law.

My personal opinion is that Sharia law is incompatible in a country where laws are in place to protect and uphold the rights of women because it is usually women who receive a raw deal.

There was a documentary shown a few years ago which followed a female lawyer in an African country (cannot remember which one - might have been Nigeria) who adjudicated over cases where women seeked redress in civil courts whilst their husbands went to the Sharia courts. It made me thankful to live in this country.

Also remember the case of the Muslim woman in Nigeria who was sentenced to death for having an affair with a married man which resulted in a child? He was given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

MT i'm sure if you'd seen murray last night you'd have been spitting too...he was absolutely awful and he and paxman repeatedly overtalked the eloquent and calm muslim representative. it was awful and totally beneath newnight.

you know, there really are fundamental christians who do heinous things to women and homosexuals in the name of the bible. but for some reason they are not a threat to our national identity or our judiciary.

but we are used to christian nutters its anything new that causes a furore!

That's incrediblty disengenous Noddy. I agree Soph, but those activites are criminal. Sharia is a get out clause for similar abuses commited in the name of Islam. Feminists have fought for decacades for equality in the law here and that equality should be extended to Muslim women who live here.

I am a bit suspicious as to why a prominent christian has made this argument.

Is it to cause a deep mistrust of muslims?
Is it because during the course of his multi faith talks with muslims (highly likely to be male aswell) he has become convinced that Sharia law is a good way of mediation in family disputes?
Why has he brought this to our attention?

I agree with Spokette. I have known abused women in muslim families who find it very difficult to seek help and to leave the family unit. If our law says it acceptable to observe sharia law, they will be pressurized in accepting this and there will be cases where their rights are not respected.

British women only got property rights, the right to vote, the right to divorce and keep their children in the last centuary. As women we must not forget this and we must strive to keep the freedoms that we have gained, not only for ourselves if we are not muslim but for our muslim sisters aswell.

Meaning Noddy?

Please just come out and say it, otherwise I just don't know what you are on about

Poohbah, o n the contrary, Christians see Muslims as comrades in arms. The christian church is over the moon that religion is back on the public aganda and that they are explicitly on side with any religious organisations against what they deem the threat of secularism. I heard this opinion from the Bishop of Durham a couple of weeks ago.

sharia does NOT and would not under in the context of RW's position ever entail british law being broken!

MT come on....that is not what is being discussed!

Sorry Poohbah, that was a response to, "Is it to cause a deep mistrust of muslims?" alone.

I just read the rest of your post.

It already does today Soph. Here and in Europe.

give me an example of sharia law meaning that british law is broken and nothing happens????

I am just saying that in this country we like the status quo even if it is not perfect itself It is the ignorance that has everyone flapping.

Some thing only happens if it is known about Soph. Do you really think 100% of all Muslim girls and women in Europe and the have never frallen foul of traditional cultural practice, be it arranged/forced marraiage, denial of an education, punishment after being raped or abortion, GM or even murder? These thuings do happen. I do't know how commonthey are, but they are relevent.

but MT that doesn't apply exclusively to islam/sharia AT ALL!!! and your argument stands or falls if said woman who is abused under sharia is ignored by british law knowingly. this is not, nor will it ever be the case!

That, I assert, is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part, Soph. I'd like to agree with you, but I can't. Feminism, as a movement, knows we need to remain extremely vigilent but more broadly the politics of liberal democracy sees that our rights and privledges in the west are tenous indeed.

It's all very well raging against the western status quo that hands us the right to dissent but completely ignore another highly patriachal culture which refuses women a voice on the grounds of cultural relativism.

Our laws and Sharia differ - why do they differ? In what way? Who is advantaged and who disadvantaged? If they are both equally fair, why introduce it at all??

There are lots of questions to be asked about this and I will not rest of my privledged western arse as well as my laurels on this. I am a feminist, so are you.

The French were extremely liberal in connection with the inclusion of Sharia. They are - of course - a secular state, whereas the UK is a bit of a hybrid.

They recognised polygamy as well as numerous other rights that were demanded by their immigrant population as appertaining to their religious freedoms.

They are now reversing their decision - having found that there is no reciprocity of liberalism or tolerance.

The Islamic street is a one way street in their experience.

The fundamentalist Christians in the US, those that - for example - campaign at servicemen's funerals are equally one-way. Letting the Waco cult leaders run their own legal system SEEMS reasonable, until you realise that there is no justice without transparency.

Religion and liberalism are incompatible (if you follow the religion correctly according to its Book).

Yes, those things do happen, in this country, and are an afront. It's a case of how best to make it stop. The police must be encouraged to intervene on behalf of women - and there are many young women 'runaways' who are, in fact, living under police protection. There are new guidelines in schools to help ensure that girls who are British Citizens are not taken abroad and subject to GM. The New genration Network - instigated and including muslims - is just one of the groups calling for an end to opression - no matter who by and who of.

But whilst islam, like other religions IS the basis of many people's genuine and heartfelt faith, and whilst so many muslims do manage to practice their faith without ANY recourse to opression of women or infringement of UK law whilst they strive for progressive islam, I don't think it is helpful for islam to be demonised on the basis of the aspects which extremists and fundementalists use to thier own ends. There was an in-depth article in the Observer a couple of weeks agao looking at 'radicalisation' of young muslims, and it was found that News At Ten was more likely to make them turn than 'mad mullahs'.

It isn't right to make exceptions for any opression of a woman or anyone else - but let's not damn an entire disparate community of people in the strategies to stamp it out.

Cobble - nobody thinks that any UK laws should be abdicated for any one group of people.

Oh, right. You're sure about that, Blu?
I'm not.

as i understand it it's all in the interpretation. islam grants a women divorce and many rights that are still unattainable for many western women under certain interpretations.

I thoroughly recommend this article by Madeleine Bunting in today's Guardian.

this is interesting

WEll no-one on this thread thinks it is a good idea, and a range of muslim organisations have said (in response to RW's comments) that they are able to be muslims and adhere to british law, and do not wish to see anything other system in place - they have said this repeatedly over the last few days...but of course there are some extreme fundementalists who would like to impose sharia law everywhere. can you see our government agreeing to it?

have you read much of this thread?

Neither of those articles is particularly illuminating.

Sophable, why have you included your link? So there's an Islamic Feminist Movement?

There's also a 'Homer Simpson for President' movement, but they're not going to be able to shift centuries of prejudice and a system weighted against men of color making the White House?

Yeah, I've read a LOT of this thread.

But since no-one on this thread wants it, I guess we should stop worrying about it?

That's a relief. I'll go back to the AIBU threads about peanut allergies then.