Archbishop says Sharia law in this country is unavoidable

[spokette]

Really?

Well if it does happen (heaven help us if it does), guess who will lose out because it certainly won't be the men.

There are over 50 muslim countries in the world so if someone wants to observe sharia law, I'm sure one of them will accommodate their lifestyle choice.

My parents came from Jamaica in the 1960s and even though they retained their culture, they observed British law.

My personal opinion is that Sharia law is incompatible in a country where laws are in place to protect and uphold the rights of women because it is usually women who receive a raw deal.

There was a documentary shown a few years ago which followed a female lawyer in an African country (cannot remember which one - might have been Nigeria) who adjudicated over cases where women seeked redress in civil courts whilst their husbands went to the Sharia courts. It made me thankful to live in this country.

Also remember the case of the Muslim woman in Nigeria who was sentenced to death for having an affair with a married man which resulted in a child? He was given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

Puss - is there only one interpretation of sunna? Doesn't it differ between Sunni and Shia, for starters?

this is quite an interesting article:

Is Female Genital Mutilation an Islamic Problem?

"But at the village level, those who commit the practice believe it to be religiously mandated. Religion is not only theology but also practice (my emphasis). And the practice is widespread throughout the Middle East. Many diplomats, international organization workers, and Arabists argue that the problem is localized to North Africa or sub-Saharan Africa,[4] but they are wrong. The problem is pervasive throughout the Levant, the Fertile Crescent, and the Arabian Peninsula, and among many immigrants to the West from these countries. Silence on the issue is less reflective of the absence of the problem than insufficient freedom for feminists and independent civil society to raise the issue."

Yes, there is a lot of interpretation on what the various Sunnahs mean and Shias interpret things differently to Sunnis but you know, female infatcide (sp!!) was a regular thing in Arabia pre Islam as it was seen as too expensive to have a daughter and a son was more worthy. The Prohphet (PBUH) but a stop to this by stating that daughters are equal to sons and should not be murdered by virtue of their gender.

Therefore, I cannot see that female genitial mutilation would be condoned. Circumscision of males is certainly mentioned in the Sunnah from a hygiene perspective but female circ serves no purpose whatsoever - its a barbaric practice and I've not come across any Islamic texts that support it

pankhurst - The status of women in Islam is indeed grim.

On one hand, women are held in high esteem, as embodiment of men's 'honor'. Women are lovely creatures, meant to be cherished and protected.

On the other hand, they are feeble-minded, inferior creatures who cannot be trusted with important tasks (like devising a plan). They don't inherit as much as men. Their witness testimony does not count as much as that of a man.

From Quran:

Men are above women in terms of 'status (2:228)
Men manage women's affairs because Allah has made men superior to women (4:34)
Two women should be witness so if one forgets the other can remind her (2:282)
Man inherits twice the share of a woman (4:11)

There are numerous examples of Hadith where Mohammad has said women are an evil omen, most of hell's residents are women, woman's mind is deficient etc.

Quran is also full of stuff we are appalled at now but would probably be seen as kind in those days, like if a relative dies, take his wife under your protection but don't force yourself on her. Don't have sex with your wife when she is menstruating. If your wife is rebellious, banish her to a separate bed and only if that doesn't work can you smack her (4:34)

On the other hand, I am fairly sure that there is nothing in the Quran about stoning women who commit adultery.

FGM does serve a purpose, though. it is specifically intended to encourage female chastity and virginity, and prevent women from enjoying sex.
it serves that purpose pretty well.

LOL does it say smack her? Or just a "loving tap"?

Oops, sorry, wrong thread...

Cote there may be nothing in the Koran about stoning to deaht for adultery, there are numerous hadith, isn't that correct?

harpsi - Female circumcision is completely banned in Egypt. I guess you wouldn't know that if your source of information is limited to a Wikipedia entry.

Forget the Wikipedia stuff. You claimed there were 'texts' that justify female circumcision. Where are they?

Where in Quran is female circumcision even mentioned?

Which hadith is supposed to sanction it?

And if either of the above had a positive answer, why did Mohammad not do it to any of his descendants?

There is quite a bit of stoning references in the Hadith, but I remember them to be influenced by the Jewish code of punishment - Jews come to Mohammad, he asks them what punishment adultery has under Torah, it is stoning, etc.

I don't remember it all, though.

LittleBella - I don't read Arabic, but my understanding is that the word used is closer to 'smack' than 'hit'.

What you must also realise is that in any text, you can take a line or so and in isolation, it sounds pretty grim but what a lot of people don't do with Islamic sayings is look at the context in which they were written and the interpretation of it - the language of Islam is Arabic and its a very very tough in-depth language with a lot of subtleties and in translation it can, and does lose a lot of the context - which is why it is recommended that Muslims learn Arabic and read the Koran in its original language

The whole 'oh men can beat their wives' line is a standard that is trotted out but the actual real meaning of it, is that if a woman has transgressed, then a man can chose not to sleep with her etc and the last one that people love to trot out is beat them but what it literally means is that a man gently puts one finger very lightly on the woman to show - thats it, you are at your limit with me -and that is all it can be - nothing more. Hardly beating is it?

Also, the reason why men inherit more than women is because a man is expected to use his inhertitance to fund family life, pay for schooling, food etc. A woman does not have to use any of her own money for family matters - not even her wages - it is seen as the husband's duty. Therefore, they inherit more as they have more to do with their money. This is all coming from hundreds of years ago so I think in that context - its pretty enlightened for its time. I mean it was only in the last century that the WI had to fight for the right of women to get child benefit because men were constantly pissing it up against the wall, gambling it, or forcing women to have sex with them to get the housekeeping and the children were suffering as a result of it!!!

by it I meant the housekeeping money - thats why the WI wanted an independent means of income for women at home with children

This is from Hirsi Ali?s The Caged Virgin. It?s worth remembering that she has been through the procedure herself and so is more qualified than most to speak on the subject:

?I do not despise Islam. I am thoroughly conscious of the noble values that the religion promotes, such as charity, hospitality and compassion for the weal and poor. But for women, the situation is very different?The value attached to a woman?s virginity is so great that it eclipses the human catastrophes and social costs that result from it?By far the most extreme method of safeguarding virginity is female circumcision. The process involves the cutting away of the girls clitoris, the outer and inner labia, as well as the scraping of the wall of her vagina with a sharp object ? a fragment of glass, a razor blade?and then the binding together of her legs so that the walls of her vagina can grow together.

?This happens in more than 30 countries, including Egypt, Somalia and Sudan. Although not prescribed in the Koran, for those Muslims who cannot do without the labour that girls perform outside the walls of their home, this originally tribal custom has practically become a religious duty, and is performed as such.

?Proponents point to the fact that (this practice) existed in the [period before and during Muhammad?s time, and that the Prophet did not explicitly prohibit it. The so called infibulation (literally ?stitching up?) offers a guarantee over women and is implemented under the watchful eyes of mothers, grandmothers and other female guardians.

?The distrust of women reaches it?s apex during the wedding night test: is the Muslim bride a virgin or not? Due to the gender apartheid that banishes women from public life, a Muslim man ahs no natural way to get to know a woman with whom he might fall in love?Although the recently wedded pair often don?t even know each other, they nevertheless must have intercourse on their wedding night. Even if the girl doesn?;t want to?And even if her husband doesn?t want to, either he must demonstrate he is a man and that he can perform. The wedding guests will wait outside until a bloodstained sheet has been displayed. This compulsory coupling is in fact a socially sanctioned rape as well as a blatant denial of the worth of an individual.?

I was interested to see the romantic myth of the stain on the sheets exploded here. It isn?t the mark of a ruptured hymen at all ? but of ruptured stitches.

She also describes the consequences if genital mutilation upon childbirth and the re stitching that occurs after. She also has more to say about the adoption of GM within Islamic culture. Or the fact that 5000 (united nations report) girls are murdered in Islamic states annually for bringing shame on their families, others married off to old men or disowned by the family. Or that 75% of women in prison in Pakistan are there for the crime of being a rape victim.

Like Ali, I don?t despise Islam, but the stories of these women cannot be ignored or discounted either.

Any adoption of Sharia Law officially, or even tolerated behind closed doors in teh name of multiculturalism, is to sanction of such practices.

"WI had to fight for the right of women to get child benefit because men were constantly pissing it up against the wall, gambling it, or forcing women to have sex with them to get the housekeeping and the children were suffering as a result of it!!! "

Absolutely PiJC's! Muslim men are no different from any other man in this respect. If they are told it's their priovledge, they (or most of them) will enforce it! This seems to be the situation for many under Islam today as it stands as a devoutly patriachal religion.

So MT, you would outlaw sharia practices, even where they are informal? How is that possible? If two consenting adults agree to sort out the division of property following a divorce without recourse to the state, how on earth could you disallow that?

The whole sheet thing though is so tribal and not endemic to Islamic societies - my friend is Greek and in some villages that she knows of, a blood stained sheet is paraded through the streets as a sign of the chastity of the woman and quite frankly, its routed in backwardness!

Also, in Islam, if a woman tells a man she is a virgin, then her word is enough - if she is lying then she will deal with the consequences of lying (an equal sin for men and women) on judgement day - the man, as a believer should trust his wife's word and vice versa

Its interesting to note that its the females in the tribes that are the most vehement supportors of FGM and are all and [scandal] if it doesn't take place!

Also, how different is a Muslim couple going to the Mosque to try and reach an amicable solution in a divorce, than the process of arbitration that lawyers advocate to divorcing couples to avoid the courts and protracted proceedings???

rooted rather....

They are brutilsed that's why. The same was done to them!

I wish someone elsewould read Hirsi Ali so I could discuss the other stuff she talks about. The above is a tiny fraction.

As fior a woman telling her prospective husband..aren't the marriages generally arranged by the familes? When would she tell him? Over chaperoned tea? The worth of the briodes family depends on her being a virgin.

Yes - these things can and should be openly discussed - its vital to a healthy marriage to have all cards on the table beforehand. For example, if a man knows he is infertile and he chooses to conceal this from his wife, she has the right to divorce him when she does find out

Also, it is not allowed in Islam to force a man or woman to marry someone against their choice - my sister in law had quite a few interested men when she was ready to get married and she kept saying no until she found the right one for her - all her decision, not anyone elses. In fact, if anything, the family would have preferred her to marry someone a little closer to her in age but the man she picked was the one she loved so that was that!

Also, just because someone was brutalised as a child, does not mean that they should brutalise any child they then have 'just because they had it done'!

Also, if a man or woman has been previously married and is now divorced or widowed and wish to remarry - this is allowed in Islam - as long as the prospective husband/wife declare this - I personally think thats just good manners! In fact, a cousin of DH's is getting married to a man who has already been divorced and has two children. She is nearly 40 and has been saying no to loads of blokes as she just didn't like any of them until this one came along!

Where do you live PiJC's?

Bristol

All of DH's family are Syrian and none of them live over here btw

MT - Ayaan Hirsi Ali is from Somalia (Africa). Her book talks about her experience in.... AFRICA.

Need I say more?

Those things that happen in her home country sound terrible. It is a good thing they are not a part of Islam and don't take place in all Muslim countries.

Did you really go back to claiming genital mutilation is a part of Islam? Really???

You are disappointing not only me but your faithful supporters here who were telling me to back off because they thought you had switched to believing it is only some Muslims who think female genital mutilation is part of Islam. They thought you knew better than claim that.

Cote, my sources of information are not confined to Wikipedia.
I imagine I have a great deal more experience of dealing with the effects of FGM than you, tbh.
I have had experience with prosecutions of people in this country who carried out FGM on young girls, and specifically claimed that they were acting int he name of Islam.
I have also taken part in trainig to deal with women giving birth who have been subjected to FGM. Women frm Muslim communities.
in Egypt the practice was banned last year and it is estimated that the vast majority of women have beemn subjected to FGM.
there are references to the texts in question in the Wiki entry and also the article to which I referred.
have you looked at them? what are your responses? iunder the heading scholarly and religious debate