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Archbishop says Sharia law in this country is unavoidable

313 replies

spokette · 07/02/2008 15:49

Really?

Well if it does happen (heaven help us if it does), guess who will lose out because it certainly won't be the men.

There are over 50 muslim countries in the world so if someone wants to observe sharia law, I'm sure one of them will accommodate their lifestyle choice.

My parents came from Jamaica in the 1960s and even though they retained their culture, they observed British law.

My personal opinion is that Sharia law is incompatible in a country where laws are in place to protect and uphold the rights of women because it is usually women who receive a raw deal.

There was a documentary shown a few years ago which followed a female lawyer in an African country (cannot remember which one - might have been Nigeria) who adjudicated over cases where women seeked redress in civil courts whilst their husbands went to the Sharia courts. It made me thankful to live in this country.

Also remember the case of the Muslim woman in Nigeria who was sentenced to death for having an affair with a married man which resulted in a child? He was given a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again.

OP posts:
Blu · 11/02/2008 11:58

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

I must say I was a bit aghast that benefits cover polygamous marriages - especially given the benefits which are not available to 'common-law' relationships here.

slim22 · 11/02/2008 12:02

Completely aghast at the benefits issue!!!
We had a thread on that last week.

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 12:12

Cote, your bulldog attitude is getting a tab tiresome. I never said it was "legal", I said "allowed" and "tolerated".

I really have no idea what your agrument is, other than to disagree on point of principal. As for spelling, I couldn;t give a toss, and will not decesnd to such petty levels

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 12:17

Here's a whole page of choice of al-Saadawi www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T5GGLL_enGB253GB253&q=Nawal+al-Saada wi

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 12:18

Try again

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2008 12:21

Let's rephrase then:

MT - How about this as "polygamy tolerated in the name of cultural relativism"? (note the correct spelling)

Polygamous marriages now recognised formally in UK, so long as the weddings took place in countries where the arrangement is legal.

Sounds like what France did at the time to me. Except that UK is doing it now. Is it now your view that polygamy is 'ALLOWED' in the UK?

Here are your country's new welfare guidelines:

New guidelines on income support from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) state: "Where there is a valid polygamous marriage the claimant and one spouse will be paid the couple rate ... The amount payable for each additional spouse is presently £33.65."

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2008 12:23

MT - You can of course cease and desist if you find it tiring to have to defend your statements, but please do answer the question below before you do so.

cobbletones · 11/02/2008 12:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 12:35

Oh dear Cote...why don't you just read the links

Blu · 11/02/2008 12:38

Are you a troll, Cobble?

Very very rude posting style.

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2008 12:39

MT - You are avoiding the question.

harpsichordcarrier · 11/02/2008 14:07

Cote, not sure what you point is about the UK v France?

policywonk · 11/02/2008 14:09

That Y-A-B article has made me rethink a bit.

At the very least, we should be redoubling our efforts to make contact with isolated Muslim women who might not be aware of their legal rights in the UK, or those who are too intimidated to make use of them.

I now think that RW is a fool to say that sharia should be formalised.

slim22 · 11/02/2008 14:11

the point is to make a point it seems....

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 14:55

My position is very clear Cote. I have no idea what it is you want me to say.

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 15:00

If bigomists are being given state benefits for extra spouses then that is tolerating, allowing to go unchallenged and in fact facilitating a practice that is explictly at odds with liberal democracy and any commitment to equal righs between men and women.

policywonk · 11/02/2008 16:09

MT, I agree with some of that, but there is also an issue here WRT tye separation of mothers and children - ie, if bigamous spouses were not granted leave to remain or given any state support, it might well result in the permanent separation of children (in this country) from their mothers (in other countries). I believe that this is the reason why the rules are as they are.

idlingabout · 11/02/2008 16:11

Well put 'Monkeytrousers'. I'm not at all clear either as to what it is 'Cote' is arguing with you about - is it semantics?

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 16:21

In response to the Bunting article, shs asks, ?Do we continue to pretend they don't exist or give them some recognition, challenged the archbishop.? I believe we should recognise they exist and protest against them, all fo them, not just Islamic. It?s feminists like Bunting who are unwittingly handing feminism a rope to hang itself with. Not that is isn't half dead already from such mismanagment.

monkeytrousers · 11/02/2008 16:27

Yes, that well may be one perspective PW, but just another example of how women are help hostage in these situations.

No idea IA

idlingabout · 12/02/2008 12:16

Further to my first post on this thread, Andrew Anthony has an excellent piece in to-day's Guardian. I had suspected that Rowan Williams is really trying to bolster his own religion by bolstering all other religions as he wants to avoid the fully secular state that so many of us desire. (can't find a link so am quoting the article)

'' The job of the public intellectual - and the Archbishop of Canterbury must inevitably deal with the public - is to take complex issues and make them accessible. Rowan Williams seems to specialise in doing the reverse: making the simple incomprehensible. And when misunderstanding follows, he and his supporters duly blame the media.

It does seem odd that the archbishop has taken such an unblinkingly pragmatic approach to sharia courts - they're here, so let's accommodate them - while managing to maintain a virginal shock at the existence of the 24-hour news media. But leaving aside the over-reaction, the media ought to be congratulated for speedily unpicking the two key points from Dr Williams's tightly knotted argument: 1) that the adoption of some aspect of sharia law seemed "unavoidable"; and 2) that the idea of one law for everybody was a "bit of a danger".

All the subclauses in the world can't disguise the intention that underpins these positions. In seeking to incorporate a disputed deity's authority (which, by the way, it is blasphemous to question) into the common law, and by challenging the principle of equality under the law, Dr Williams launched a strategic attack on secularism.

He and his supporters argue that we should cherry-pick the nice parts of sharia that "converge" with British law. But if we're only talking about the civil aspects of sharia that are supposedly compatible - and here we have to ignore such inconveniences as gender inequality, forced marriages and polygamy - why does the law have to change?

The answer is that the law, as it stands, is merely the creation of a democratic parliament, and judicial case law. It is not God's law. And that is the crux of the matter. It has nothing to do with realism or inclusivity or tolerance.

If Dr Williams was seriously concerned about constitutional law and religious justice, he would look at the dwindling number of his followers in this country and call for the disestablishment of the Church of England.

Much of the grievance members of other religions and denominations currently feel stems from the privilege - state endorsement, parliamentary representation - that Dr Williams's church conspicuously enjoys. Who can deny that the church's special treatment looks increasingly absurd in our multicultural society? Even Dr Williams himself has acknowledged that Britain is not a Christian country in terms of "active churchgoers". Therefore the choice on offer is either to downgrade the Church of England, or upgrade other religions. Dr Williams has made his preference obvious.

He should think again. If he really wants the hateful media off his back, he ought to separate his church from the British state. Then his pronouncements would more properly be a matter only for him and his vanishing congregation.''

SueBaroo · 12/02/2008 12:29

idlingabout, that's exactly the point of the ABC's lecture on the PDF.

He's basically saying that there are times when religion and state law come into conflict, and suggesting ways to accomodate that rather than put people into a quandary of who to obey - religion or law.

But he did it in a really cack-handed and unthinkingly sensationalist way, and it's fallen on him like a ton of bricks (and quite rightly too, imo)

The fact is that there are many interesting Christian examples he could have chosen to use - maybe the house churches in China, refusing to follow the law of registration of religion over there and so on.

He wasn't arguing for Sharia per se, but against the potential of an all-powerful secular state.

But he didn't say it nearly clearly enough.

edam · 12/02/2008 12:34

I gather Rowan Williams ignores his press advisers because he considers himself far too intellectual to bother worrying about whether anyone will understand what he says. And regards ordinary people - including CofE worshippers -as mere plebs who can be ignored.

Not sure how fair that is but seems to have an element of truth given everything he has said in the past week.

I also have my doubts about his attitudes to women - he's anti abortion and clearly unconcerned about the treatment of women under Sharia.

SueBaroo · 12/02/2008 12:38

The anti-abortion thing would have been a more appropriate choice for him to look at, too, tbh.

There's a legitimate conflict of interest in law for the Christian in that situation that would be useful to discuss.

monkeytrousers · 12/02/2008 13:18

Wasn't that part of what Bunting was saying too, Edam. So unbelievabl;y patronising and the complete opposite of her position when it comes to science.

Of course she is highly religious herself and obviouslty puts her faith above her feminism. I think that's something we need to remember.

All power to the secularists INO. Respect to the religious, but lets keep blind faith out of logical affairs.