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Is the UK really more racist than the USA?

148 replies

Blip · 07/12/2022 14:36

I always thought that the USA was way more racist than the UK but recently have heard a lot on the news that the USA generally believes the UK is a lot more racist than the USA.

Is there any kind of consensus on this?

OP posts:
Antaboo · 07/12/2022 16:08

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handbagsandholidays · 07/12/2022 16:11

I think the U.S is more openly racist. Britain is probably the same but we hide it better with institutional racialism, unconscious bias and segregation.

Greenfinch7 · 07/12/2022 16:13

Newsflash: attitudes in the US have changed in the past 70...

Additional newsflash: People in the UK frequently think they are superior to people in the US

There are now parts of the US that are truly integrated. Moving to NYC after living in rural Southern England, I was very aware of how many black people are in positions of power and authority. I became used to it and realised that it was completely normal and I was no longer noticing.

Spendonsend · 07/12/2022 16:15

There so many measures to consider, educational attainment, access to healthcare, access to justice, being in power like the judiciary, members of parliament, ceos of business, economic strenght, day to day experiences.

I dont suppose it helps to compare. We just need to focus on making our own country better.

RefusedInsurance · 07/12/2022 16:17

Im neither American or British but have been to both countries. I can objectively say the US is much much more racist than the UK. The uk doesn't have segregation and the history of slavery in the same way the US has. It really is vile there. You brits are charming in comparison!

prh47bridge · 07/12/2022 20:38

WeepingSomnambulist · 07/12/2022 15:30

There was an interested story from WW2. I'll try and find it.
American soldiers station in a town in England, they had a platoon of black soldiers with them. The black soldiers said they couldnt believe the treatment they got here. They were very much 2nd class citizens in the US, and the white american soldiers treated them like dirt. When they got here, there was no segregation and they were welcome in the pubs and cafes and the locals didnt bat an eye lid at them.
The white American soldiers were furious about having to share with the black soldiers so demanded that the town racially segregated. The town put up saying "Locals and Blacks only" and wouldnt deal with the white soldiers.

There ended up being an actual shoot out in the town, between the black soldiers and white soldiers throughout the town. The locals said it was very much the white guys who started it, but official reports in the US army (I think) blamed the black soldiers.

You are referring to the Battle of Bamber Bridge. You can read about it on Wikipedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bamber_Bridge

HaveYouSeenNancy · 07/12/2022 21:05

I was in a restaurant in Florida about 5 years ago and the (black) waiter approached our table with a big smile and said "Hi, my name is Adam and I'll be your server this evening. Is that okay with you guys? If you have any objections I can go get someone else." We smiled back and - slightly bewildered - I said "Ermm..." and dh said "Why? Is it your first shift or something?" He said "No sir, I've been here six months and I don't generally get things wrong, but some folks object on account of my race." Just like that, like it's an absolutely normal thing to object to. I can't imagine that happening in the UK, so I don't think the UK is more racist.

dolor · 07/12/2022 21:07

They're both racist shitholes.

808Kate1 · 07/12/2022 21:21

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Well I suppose you acknowledge your generalisation, but odd thing to say. So to add a counterpoint, some of the kindest people I've known have been Indians, particularly Sikhs of Indian heritage and haven't heard any racism from them. Their community do a huge amount of volunteer work throughout the UK helping to feed the homeless, especially in multi-ethnic areas.

thelionthewitchtheaudacityofTHISbitch · 07/12/2022 21:55

Greenfinch7 · 07/12/2022 16:13

Newsflash: attitudes in the US have changed in the past 70...

Additional newsflash: People in the UK frequently think they are superior to people in the US

There are now parts of the US that are truly integrated. Moving to NYC after living in rural Southern England, I was very aware of how many black people are in positions of power and authority. I became used to it and realised that it was completely normal and I was no longer noticing.

I lived and worked on the East Coast in the early 90's. Very professional environment. I found an integrated environment regarding domestic ethnicity. I had moved from the UK from a similar environment (more mixed nationalities, and therefore ethnicity) and liked it. I wasnt sure about the (segregated by colour) Fraternities/ Sororities/and then the recruitment from overtly black universities. But the internationals from non-English speaking countries (mostly Asian) were discriminated against disgustingly by American managers. So a very mixed bag. I then experienced integrated environments throughout the rest of my career (financial services sector). Similar with regard to (male) sexuality. Very mixed, always, and everyone able to be open.

But my no longer noticing "moment" was actually far more recent. I was watching the Pottery Throw Down and the lovely judge (cant remember the name) was talking to a contestant about displaying images of people of colour. Their emotion was strong. I looked at them both and suddenly thought Yes - OK. I see that now. But upto that point in the programme I had obviously seen their "colour" but it was totally irrelevant so I hadn't really absorbed it. I was quite shocked and I still don't know how I really feel. Should I watch all programmes self-consciously noting difference; or should I continue as I was, absorbing the content? I prefer the latter.

Needadoop · 12/02/2023 12:32

elp30 · 07/12/2022 15:54

I'm a Mexican-American and live in Texas where we are the largest ethnic minority. I'm comfortable living in Texas and the southwest US for this reason. I certainly feel different in other states and that feeling isn't just in the southern states either. I'm not falling over myself to visit parts of New England or the Midwest again due to previous encounters.

When I was a child, I'm 52 now, it was important to be "American" outside the house and assimilate and be "Mexican/ethnic" at home. These days, my ethnic group has the stance that we are "American" as we are, rightfully so, and are through with having two separate identities but want to express themselves fully. Add the other ethnic groups and races and there's certainly a clash with the "white" Americans in my country. We are a "meting pot" of cultures, after all. Perhaps they may feel threatened and add the media to it and racism goes over the top.

I lived in England for nine years and I'll admit that I was a little bit worried about how my son and I would be treated but we lived pretty happily. Admittedly, my son (we are dark-skinned) did get some bad words thrown his way at elementary school once but it was quickly taken care of and he and I did receive an apology by the teacher, the headmaster, the children who insulted my son and their parents.

What's really puzzling is that I'm less likely to be singled-out as a dark-skinned Hispanic woman in the UK. However, once I open my mouth and my Texan accent is heard, people have been known to make fun of me, treat me differently and say shit to me 🤷🏻‍♀️

Referring to your last paragraph, that's because we British tend to judge people with our ears more so than with our eyes. We are so obsessed with accents and where people are from that that's how we judge people unfortunately.

LoveMAFS · 13/02/2023 08:48

My friend bought a holiday home in Florida. It needed updating. He found a diy handyman/painter (who happened to be black) who he liked and the person set to work. Later that day my friend was visited by a group of neighbours and told in no uncertain terms the black man had to go! I was super shocked hearing this.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 13/02/2023 08:53

I had an American client who asked me whether we still had apartheid in England. I’m not sure she believed me when I said we had never had a legal colour bar.

bert3400 · 13/02/2023 08:58

When I lived in the US in the late 80s the racism was shocking - this was LA not the south. I was really good friends with a Mexican work colleague and we got on so well. One American white colleague pulled me over to warn me not to get too friendly with the 'wetbacks' . I was so shocked . The other thing I really remember is the TV shows ...The Cosby show was all black characters & Family Ties was all white characters, I was used to EastEnders and a total mix of characters from India, Jamaica, white British and Black British ...it was totally alien to me the segregation. Not sure if the US has moved on, I do feel the UK as gone backwards but that would be 13 years of Rightwing anti immigration brainwashing from the government and media.

RLScott · 14/02/2023 19:55

Only just seen this thread. What a preposterous suggestion than anywhere is more racist than the racist entity that is america, the most racist nation in human history.

Bit of background, I’m Irish, and my parents marched in the 1960s civil rights marches here in Northern Ireland due to discrimination against catholics (housing, jobs etc.), and these marches were directly inspired by the civil rights marches instigated by the oppressed black people in america. Placards here with the wording “negroes of Northern Ireland” were common. There are murals here to Malcolm X, Martin Luther Kimg Jr and other freedom fighters who suffered under the boot of the colonial white settler state that is america.

The mention of the UK and race I assume was brought up in relation to Markle. First off, she is from a race based nation, everything there is about race. A black person there gets elected Mayor is a headline news story as it’s seen as an accomplishment (it should be the bloody norm, not seen as something to celebrate). She brought this emphasis on race over to the UK (during her brief stay) when it doesn’t apply. She has since instilled in Harry his “unconscious bias” (a concept he’d never thought of before, of course he didn’t as he isn’t from a race based society). Few of the american race laws (of which it was the global leader) that apply to her:

1.she’s not white, therefore is not a true american in accordance with the Naturalization Act of 1790 that restricted citizenship to whites only. This racist law lasted until the 1870s. Other non whites (such as Indians) couldn’t be citizens until the 1960s.
2.she’s not white, therefore could not have relations/marry a white person in accordance with the Anti-miscegenation laws that lasted until 1967 (only Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany also enacted a no race mixing law).
3.she is, what the tyrant thomas jefferson would call, a mulatto, that’s mixed race, and had she absconded from her slavemaster as his slaves did, via the Fugitive Slave Clause of the Constitution, her image would have appeared in newspaper adverts akin to those taken out by jefferson to recover his escaped slaves, one of whom was a mulatto named Sandy.
4.she’s not white, thus would have been banned from being educated (america is the only nation on Earth to have had an Anti-literacy law, a law enacted to prevent blacks from being educated for fear of them becoming awakened and ultimately rebelling)
5.she’s not white, thus would have been prevented from living in the house she’s now living in in Los Angeles due to racial covenants that first appeared in the 1920s in the northern and western states after black people began leaving the south, covenants that prohibited houses being sold to non Caucasians.

Markle, historically in america, a non citizen, prohibited from marrying a white person, could be captured if she escaped from her master with her fugitive image appearing in newspapers, banned from being educated, and couldn’t live in the house she is now in. She couldn’t vote either (but that wasn’t just an american restriction as it was the case almost everywhere until the early 20th century, what was an american restriction was white only voting, this is contrast to Britain, for example Ignatius Sancho, a black British man in the 1770s who owned his own home, his own business (grocery store) and who could vote (which he did in the 1774 and 1780 British general elections), it would be another century before a black man could do the same in america, and even then it was restricted until the 1960s.

I could go on and on, but this article gives a general overview:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States

This in the opening section:

.......In the view of the United Nations and the U.S. Human Rights Network, "discrimination in the United States permeates all aspects of life and extends to all communities of color.”

And further down the article. As recent as 2017.....

.....the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination issued a rare warning to the US and its leadership to "unequivocally and unconditionally" condemn racist speech and crime, following violence in Charlottesville during a rally organized by white nationalists, white supremacists, Klansmen, neo-Nazis and various right-wing militias in August.

Only two years ago thousands of whites, including the Proud Boys, stormed the US Capitol (a building also built by slaves (like most of Washington) in a city named after an enslaver of over 600 black people) as they didn’t like the result of the election.

Noicant · 14/02/2023 20:15

The level of self consciousness about race seems to be markedly different in the USA. I don’t live in the Uk (or the west) but I’m a brit, a lot of my friends consume a lot of american media and were convinced Sunak had no chance of becoming the prime minister as a person of Indian heritage or that there would be a giant hoohah about it. I was like “I don’t think that many people are that bothered, a few will be extremely bothered but not as many as you think”.

The NYT and Washpo run really strange articles about Britain and colonialism. They seem to imply that theres a chunk of far right loons running amok in the UK, I remember one article entitled something along the lines of Truss being enthralled with empire and trying to link her with enoch powell which was a bit excessive (I’m brown and I think Liz was mainly in thrall to cheese). The articles about the queen were a bit mad as well. It’s all a bit hyperventilating and hysterical tbh.

Noicant · 14/02/2023 20:16

HaveYouSeenNancy · 07/12/2022 21:05

I was in a restaurant in Florida about 5 years ago and the (black) waiter approached our table with a big smile and said "Hi, my name is Adam and I'll be your server this evening. Is that okay with you guys? If you have any objections I can go get someone else." We smiled back and - slightly bewildered - I said "Ermm..." and dh said "Why? Is it your first shift or something?" He said "No sir, I've been here six months and I don't generally get things wrong, but some folks object on account of my race." Just like that, like it's an absolutely normal thing to object to. I can't imagine that happening in the UK, so I don't think the UK is more racist.

Thats just fucking horrible poor guy.

HeddaGarbled · 14/02/2023 20:31

My, purely observational, opinion, is that in the US, people of colour are able to achieve high ranking positions (e.g. judges) in a way that is very difficult in the U.K., but in the U.K. people of colour are less likely to be killed by racist police officers, home-owners etc.

So the U.S look at our lack of diversity in positions of power and rightly identify that as racist, and we look at the lack of protection for “Black lives” in the U.S and rightly identify that as racist.

Vitriolinsanity · 14/02/2023 20:32

My first hand experience is of landing at JFK, an airport that I have flown into many, many times. I am white.

The way that anyone not presenting as white is absolutely risible.

I think their Customs people think people standing in the queue, often for a couple of hours cannot see the way that anyone non-Caucasian is treated.

The looks of abject disgust, the over-exaggerated inability to hear, shouting and sending people back to queue because of God knows what reason is appalling.

olivehater · 14/02/2023 20:36

I would suspect that Americans suddenly think the UK is more racist because of the Meghan Markle
thing. As she keeps bleating on about it

RichardHeed · 14/02/2023 20:43

They seem to imply that theres a chunk of far right loons running amok in the UK
That would be the current government… badumtiss

Pricklyheath · 14/02/2023 20:46

HaveYouSeenNancy · 07/12/2022 21:05

I was in a restaurant in Florida about 5 years ago and the (black) waiter approached our table with a big smile and said "Hi, my name is Adam and I'll be your server this evening. Is that okay with you guys? If you have any objections I can go get someone else." We smiled back and - slightly bewildered - I said "Ermm..." and dh said "Why? Is it your first shift or something?" He said "No sir, I've been here six months and I don't generally get things wrong, but some folks object on account of my race." Just like that, like it's an absolutely normal thing to object to. I can't imagine that happening in the UK, so I don't think the UK is more racist.

Not quite the same but my English ds was screamed at by a welsh woman in a McDonalds drive through because he couldn’t speak welsh. However he understands welsh very well and the woman could speak English.
And Big Mac is the same anyway.

lobeliasb · 14/02/2023 20:46

I'm American and I would say the frequency of it is similar, but it's expressed differently. The English people I know seem to be almost oblivious to how racist they are being, while the Americans know exactly what they are saying. I'm from a diverse area of the US and didn't really see or hear many racist comments, thankfully. But it obviously does exist, you hear it more from old people where I'm from. My great aunt was subjected to a hysterectomy against her will in her early 20's because she was dating my great uncle who was mixed race, I don't know if that sort of thing happened in the UK but I doubt it.

In the UK I've encountered people not understanding anything about Judaism and the persecution of Jewish people - like complete ignorance on the topic, but will make jokes about them. Openly racist comments about travellers. I had someone suggest to me that black men always cheat/have multiple girlfriends as a part of their culture.... wtf? Someone else I know said to an East Asian tradesman working on their home "I bet you make a good chinkie" and apparently didn't realize it was offensive. I've had people rant at me about immigrants, and when I've pointed out that I'm an immigrant, they tell me I'm "the good kind". It's not like in your face KKK racism, but it's definitely there.

PermanentTemporary · 14/02/2023 20:57

Agree with @lobeliasb. I think the UK can be almost bizarrely racist but it is different from how it presents in the US or in other countries. I'm not convinced it's always unconscious though. Even less so the antisemitism which is endemic in the UK. It might be necessary to think of 'London' and 'the rest of the UK' in this though (not from London myself).

Those who mention Australia- which culture does the racism come from do you think? Anyone read A Town Like Alice where the basis of the entire book was the White Australia policy - how essential it was to get more white British girls to Australia so that white men and Aboriginal women didn't marry or have children?

JamSandle · 14/02/2023 21:14

Everywhere has racism, sexism, discrimination.