Steve Biddulph discusses the results of a childcare "experiment" from Canada.

[Astrophe]

here, in the Sydney Morning Herald

You've seen this on the Bill

Interesting dramasequalzero - Oliver James also says something similar in his book 'They f**k you up'. Early experiences count. If I could find the book again I would check but he says the experiences of one-to-one care as an infant are v. important and he also advocates children being cared for by their parents, ideally to the age of 3. I think his book is where I got the idea at that 16 hours a week was the max before stress and anxiety indicators started to increase in nursery cared-for children.

Just wish I could find it as there are pages of references to numerous studies in the back of the book.

Yes, juule I get most of my information from the bill. better than the daily mail any day. (obviously a tongue-in-cheek comment if you need that spoon-fed to you).

Anyway, the fact that children in Scandinavia has attended fulltime nursery for decades in countries with much less social problems that the UK (a country where actually only a tiny minority have attended the sort of hours of nursery these studies are talking about) proves my point it is not fulltime nursery and mums going out to work which is the problem, but rather how Scandinavia differs from the UK on many other points which have previously been pointed out by various posters on this thread.

Not that obvious a tongue-in-cheek comment given your view of MC v WC usage of nurseries. Thanks for the clarification.

Niecie, what is my view on wc nurseries? My view is that private nursery costing around £800-1000 a month is not used by children from the local council estate.I believe this is where you find most of the children who are going to end up with social problems, will be more likely to carry a knife to school,become pregnant at 12 or roam the streets. That is I believe a fact and you can just have a look at the police presence on these estates versus residential streets in Putney to see that. That is not the same as saying just because your parents have money or an education or dress you in boden you will not get drunk at uni or suffer from depression in later life.

£800 per month for a nursery??? Blimey, must be outside london. Ours is £1,400 for full time. But DS is part time now, so we can afford to eat again

Just to add from the Scandinavian perspective (my dd has been attending full-time nursery in Denmark since about 9 months btw). I agree with Morningpaper that to go from being full-time at home straight to being full-time in nursery must be a huge shock and very upsetting for babies and toddlers, especially after they have become more aware of the adults they are attached to.

But just wanted to add that, certainly in the case of dd, it wasn't a matter of just taking her to nursery and that was it, but she was very slowly integrated in (the whole process actually took about a month, building things up a little each day). They are also very conscious about the carers in the nursery being the same ones for each group of children (around 7 or 8 children in each room with 2 or 3 adults) to the extent that they also have an agreement with the same temp carers who come in if one of the regular carers is ill etc, so that the children can build up a relationship with the carers and feel secure. Having said that, the system here is geared towards this sort of way of doing things, and if people are paying the sort of nursery fees mentioned on this thread, then I can understand that such a slow integration period doesn't make any economic sense unless you're mega rich.

Can't comment on the UK nursery system or way of doing things as have no personal experience of them, but just wanted to explain a little bit the system here.

actually I also disagree with the notion that only the middle classes use full time nurseries. that certainly isn't my experience. I am pmsl at "I have seen it on the Bill" but I think your argument is a non sequitur.
the issues you describe may well lead to social problems and mental health problems, but that doesn't make it more or less likely that Steve Biddulph's suppositions are correct.

Absolutely agree with you Harpsicord. What about all the day nurseries in so called working class areas - who is using them? What about the subsidies and the tax credits to get the poorer families back to work? Not everybody is using expensive private nurseries. To afford £1k a month and still have any money left to make it worthwhile going to work you need to be earning at least the national average salary and the majority of people aren't (average is skewed by the very high earners). What are all those people on less than the national average doing for child care?

The class thing is a red herring. You can't say children won't be affected by being in nurseries because their parents pay loads of money for them to be there and they are professionals.

The research is simply saying nurseries lead to more behavioural problems in more children, all other things being equal, i.e. comparing nursery children with a matched control group of children who don't go to nursery.

But if you are talking about government run nurseries? Do they exist except for sure start nurseries set up in disadvantaged areas? And you cannot seriously think that working parents get tax credits to cover a nursery place costing £1000+ a month?

So we are already talking about very different things. I am talking good private nurseries. Not all are good, but some are truly excellent. Sadly very few can afford it. This means the class thing is not a red herring because it means that only
the relatively wealthy can access good quality childcare!

I didn't realise there were different classes of nursery too! Surely all nurseries are suppose to reach the same minimum standards and are Ofsted inspected. I did say tax credits and other subsidies to cover the cost.

Anyway, you are missing the point - the research will compare like with like - middle class children in nurseries (good or bad) with middle class children who don't go to nursery. That is how scientific research works. You don't just look at children from nurseries in isolation and think they look a bit more aggressive/socialable/intelligent/highly strung or whatever, you have to compare them with other children who have not gone to nursery. So the class thing is spurious.

Niecie, you don't know very much about nurseries. No tax credits and subsidies does not cover a place which costs £1000 a month. Are you kidding me?

Secondly, you cannot compare the sure start nurseries (I believe they are called childrens centres) set up by the government to combat child poverty to privately run nurseries. It's like comparing oranges with apples. parents who pay £1000+ a month can demand a very different standard than parents of children in sure start. Theer are terrible private nurseries too of course, but one of my points is that we need more investments in the nursery sector.

I would love it if you could comment on my question regarding why Scandinavian children are not really aggressive and stressed since the majority of them attend nursery? Please Niecie, What is your view?

www.essentialbaby.com.au/page/feature_fact_and_fiction_april06.html

sorry cannot do links but quite interesting about SB

Bloody hell, fairy. You don't half sound like a snob

Mine has a FREE 12.5 hrs at a Sure Start Nursery. Unless you want your kids to learn Arabic by the time they're 3.5, or to have their arses wiped with golf leaf, I don't really see that the difference can be that seismic.

And no, they're not called children centres. They're called 'gulags for the children of poor people ..'

I am a snob because I point out that one of the major problems in the UK today is inequality between people? And that the children in private nurseries are not from the socially and financially disadvantaged backgrounds where you find most problems? I think its great that you are happy with your sure start nursery. I probably just have quite high standards when it comes to my childrens daycare.

You sound like a piece of work, lady.

Lol Desirata - You had the balls to say what I was thinking! It was all getting a bit 'them and us' for a while there.

The last line of the last post says it all - "I probably just have quite high standards when it comes to my childrens daycare".

And the rest of us don't a flying fart I suppose?

I did write a long response to your previous post Fairy but I had wanted to check my facts before I posted it. However, I had to go out and now it is gone and I can't be bothered to start again.

I would just say, regarding the article you linked to and Scandinavia that Scandinavian children don't go to nursery before the age of at least 12 mths so their children are spared some of the effects of starting nursery early.

It always makes me laugh when people start citing Bowlby - articles like this invariably treat it as though it is was the only study done on attachment theory when in fact the whole thing has evolved a lot since the 1950's. It strikes me as a lazy argument to say that it is out of date but not to say how things have moved on.

As for Scandinavians children not being stressed don't Scandinavians have some of the highest suicide rates in the world?

I haven't had time to look into it properly though and now it is Friday evening which isn't the time to be starting.

He must have a new book out.

He always seems to pop up with a 'shocker' when he wants to flog a few copies.

Desiderata, its really the same argument as for private schools versus state schools. I don't think there is much doubt that if you have the money you can buy your child a better education in this country. If you have the money to put your child into private school then you are more likely to mix with children from resourceful backgrounds who greatly value education and are more likely to do well.
It's the same for my nursery. I pay 15K a year for my child (same as a place in a private school I would imagine). The children are from similar fairly advantaged backgrounds and more likely to go on to do well (probably more likely to go private school too). I don't think it SHOULD BE like that. I like much more investments in the nursery sector so EVERYONE had acess and I am against private schools too. How the heck does that make me a snob? Do you live in London? Because if you don't your reality may be very different from my reality.

Niecie, actually Sweden with the other Scandinavian countries has been rated top country to grow up in for children. UK is doing very very badly on this list exactly because there are so many problems with inequality, lack of social mobility etc

And yes, I know scandinavian children start nursery at 12 -18 months but that is exactly why I am saying we need to extend PAID maternity leave. I don't know anyone actually fighting against extended maternity leave....My personaly opinion is that its better to start earlier than 12 months, but I want people to have the choice.

That's right, Niecie. The rest of us don't give a fiddler's fuck. We're common, is all

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/feb/14/childrensservices.politics

what standards can you demand for your £1k per month? one-to-one care? continuity of staff? Agreed there are good and not so good nurseries, but all have to adhere to standards, so there is not that much difference in reality in terms of the things that matter. I can't believe your attitude Fairy Mum. What makes you think that throwing money around will make any difference? I despair...

Happynappies, I am not throwing my money around. This is the cost of a fulltime nursery place. The sure start nurseries (at least in London) are targeted at children in disadvantaged areas. This is great, but there isa large group of the population who will not qualify for sure start nor have the money for private nurseries and where do they go?

Of course you can demand more and better when you have the money to pay.Its the same in schooling, health care.... Did you really not know that?

Does your £1000 a month guarantee you continuity of care, and 1:1 staff:child ratios? You cannot 'demand' more and better... get real.

What can I demand for the money? I want all the nursery teachers to wear Boden so my little baby can recognise a familiar smell!