Steve Biddulph discusses the results of a childcare "experiment" from Canada.

[Astrophe]

here, in the Sydney Morning Herald

Christ this is dull

OK. Rant over.

Bubble99-sorry didn't mean you! Just the way this thread has evolved into how much nursery fees cost.
Should have made that clear

That's OK. I was going on a bit.

I am a WOHM who has used ft nursery for both my dcs from a young age. SB does not trouble me.

Truth it, he is irrelevant if, based on your individual circumstances, your dcs are clearly happy with their nursery and are flourishing, long hours or not.

SB claims to quote research and that is fine to inform public policy. I say research away, because for every study that shows a bad nursery is harmful, there will be another study which says a good nursery is beneficial. Just like a good mother brings up lovely children and a neglectful one does not. It is not rocket science.

Unlike many posters, I have personal observations of these poor children who spend long hours in nursery 10 hours a day, 5 days a week. I know because I am there at 8 am with them and their parents, waiting for the clock to strike 8 am and there around 6 pm when the doors close. I have seen these children at pick up time, at their most stressed out. I have seen them playing at each other houses on playdates and each others' birthday parties.

You know what, I don't worry that they will be aggressive and have mental health issues. They are my dd's and ds' friends. They move onto good primary schools. Often have 2 working parents, and still find the time to take them out to museums, parks and play areas on weekends. They are not perfect, a lot of them went through an aggressive phase at around 2-3, but all came out at 4 lovely and a delight to have around.

Yes, my nursery is a good one. I don't know whether it is due to the cost, but I coincidentally pay more than £1K for a ft below-2 place, around £800 for a 2+ place, dropping to around £650 after the sure start grant kicks in at 3.

I wouldn't worry about these ft children. They have the best immunity from mental health issues possible - 2 involved parents and a happy family life, with lots of stimulation and fun during the week.

Crikey Ikey, I know I am dragging the thread back away, but can I just say:

The way Surestart nurseries have been funded thus far (and I know it may change), they are some of the best equipped and staffed nurseries in the country! It's nothing short of hilarious that you think otherwise Fairymum. Have you ever been in a Sure start nursery?

Whe I was looking for a nursery for my DD, we went to several around our neighbourhood. Nothing held a candle to Surestart in terms of the skills and training of the staff, the quality of the building, the wonderful quality equipment, and the extremely low staff turn over. No expense has been spared on these places, and the staff (at ours anyway) are absolutely delightful, and most have been there the 2 years we have been.

My mum, who has a Phd in Early childhood eduaction and has visited thousands of nurseries over the years, was gushing about the quality of the surestarts she has seen.

I know the surestart system has not been an untold success, but the centres themselves are excellent.

So there.

And I second that emotion!

I could have trawled through plenty of nurseries, but the one my son goes to is quite simply excellent.

I am loving how so many of you are happy with your nurseries. I did put my dcs down for a surestart nursery in my area - I visited it and was impressed with the facilities and staff.

But I did not choose it because I found that it catered for children 1 year and up. The nursery was in the process of opening a baby room for under-1s but had very very limited places for what was already an oversubscribed catchment. Also they seemed more geared up to offer part time places, and were a bit surprised I was asking about ft. Another mother on my road who put her dcs down for that nursery at the same time as me (below-1) only got morning sessions after years of chasing when her dcs were 3. By that time, she could no longer go back to work as she was hoped. She is now still a SAHM. I am not sure how other surestart nurseries work and clearly only commenting on this particular one.

For working mothers, those conditions are clearly unacceptable. And a lot of us would have had no choice but to go to the private sector for ft provision for under-1s.

well, thats my point. sure start is not designed for the average working parents working fulltime. do they have fulltime places at all? certainly i see from reading this thread there is a real myth that working parents have access to state run nurseries which doesn't cost a lot of money and that they get lots of tax credits and subsidies to cover their costs. there are two different types of nursery. the ones which covers everything from baby and full week (normally private and really expensive) or the ones where you put your 3 year-old a few sessions a week.

Our Surestart nursery has 3 rooms - baby, 2-3s and 3-5s. There are a lot of kids on 'funded places' in the 3-5s room (like my DD, who does her 5 free sessions over 3 days a week), but almost all the rest are full time, or two or three full days a week, that sort of thing. The nursery is open 7.30am-6pm

"there are two different types of nursery. the ones which covers everything from baby and full week (normally private and really expensive) or the ones where you put your 3 year-old a few sessions a week."

hmmmm, no there aren't actually.
are you thinking of pre-schools because they aren't state funded (or anything to do with sure start) but are generally committee- (i.e. parent-) run, not not really geared up to cater for f/t working parents.

Canadian daycare(nursery) ratios are not 1/5 for infants but 3/1. As long as the centre is government licenced, there are rules about the physical facilities (washroom, eating, sleeping, lighting levels, etc.), The minimum window space ( precludes day cares from being in a basement,)the minimum floor space per child (for example 2.8 square metres), the maximum number of children per room, minimum outdoor time. Staffing ratios ( 1:3 for under 18 months, 1:5 for 18-30 months, 1:8 for over 30 months, and even higher ratios for older children).

The debate rages in canada same as this thread. The key is to check your centre and trust your instincts. I used at home care with a woman without any degrees or training (except life) and she was excellent and we still keep in touch. My sister used a licensed centre and found out they had let her ds and other kids run around the parking lot (didn't know the kids had got out).

The debate will rage on!

Oh, fair enough re: infants, but 1:5 for 18-30 months is still a lot worse than here - it's 1:3 up to 2 years, 1:4 2-3 years, 1:8 3+.

I agree. 1/5 is pretty large ration for under 3's imo.