I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

Iklboo - I'm assuming that he wasn't thinking at all when he did it. Of course there is no justification for what he did - the act was evil- but there are explanations for what he did.

Oh edam, I dont disagree.

There is much myth surrounding mental illness. Schizophrenia for example. 99.9999999999% of sufferers arent violent, and yet the illness is often portrayed as causing such things.

I, myself, as a relatively sane person...., and having been in a very dark pit of depression a couple of years ago, can honestly say that I only ever had thoughts of what it would be like if I wasnt around. (Came nowhere near to acting it out, I just felt so unnecessary). I can see how anger can erupt in people. How a series of events can cause a reaction to something that is utterly terrifying.

It's the physical picking up of your child and throwing them to their death that I'm stuck on. My issue entirely, of course. But I can't see how any normal thinking parent can do that.

or maybe he was thinking 'this will destroy my wife'. We don't know. I'm not prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt until/unless we do.

Fio - my post was to KKM - if that helps?

I feel desperately sorry for everyone.
It is a tragedy, crime yes of course, but he was not of sound mind, is that not totally obvious?

Oh, me neither, as in 'I don't know how a parent could even think of doing that in the first place, let alone do it'. But he did.

and it is telling that Mr Hogans family remain a loving and involved part of the daughters life. (Mia is her name?)

No, Piffle, it isn't! I keep saying, just because someone does something evil, doesn't mean they were mad. It's false logic.

That line is a. unfair to people with mental illness and b. gives people who do evil an excuse.

I think yes in many cases it is not apparent
But in this case I really do believe that he was suffering from something that led him to behave in a way that no one would ever do, just for a fraction of moment, that's all it took.
We could argue what his rationale was at the time, to hurt his wife possibly? Hard to know

What is the capacity for mental health defence in Greece does anyone know?

There does seem to be a tendency for some men to kill their children to punish their wives. Women do kill children too but not usually to punish their husband (the woman who jumped off a bridge with her son was a single parent I think).

It's a terrible twist in the mentality of some men (tiny numbers I know but you do hear reasonably regularly on the news "car found with three bodies in it; thought to be father and two children").

people with severe mental illness (as seems so probable in this case) are hundreds of times more likely to be a risk to themselves than to others - when someone is discharged prematurely from hospital or is not receiving appropriate community treatment and kills a member of the public or a family member it makes headlines.

yet hundreds of people in similar situations die by their own hands every year without attracting any media interest at all - I just don't understand why this unacceptably high loss of life is any less tragic

don't know if the point has been made already but 'extended suicide' (taking a child with you) is more often committed by women than men

I?m finding it very difficult to have sympathy with him. And I think the ?I was not of sound mind? line is one that is all too easy to trot out, even more so when there is a history of suicide in the family. It?s almost used as an excuce for what he did.

If he had succeeded in his attempt to kill himself and both his children then he would not be here to live through it, but given that he did not succeed he should be made to face the consequences of his actions, be that in jail or in a mental institution.

I find it difficult to understand how anyone can feel sorry for him tbh. Ian Brady was not considered of sound mind, neither was peter Sutcliff, and there are many more like them in broadmoore, and yet most people would only speak of them as sick bastards who ruined the lives of their victims and their families, and yet a man does this to his own family and we must see this as a tradgedy and feel sorry for him because we?re sure he didn?t mean to do it. Why is there a difference?

We were trying to establish that I think vacua. That is interesting. Are there any stats on it?

He ultimately was the one who killed his child and although this is unforgiveable is obviously distraught.

The only thing newsworthy here is that he killed his child, it is up to the court to decide his mental state and motivation at the time but cant you just see that the media are going to paint his ex wife as a "cold" person and try to dig up an affair.

I really dont think anyone can comment unless they have had to live with someone who suffers from severe depression; it is hard, they are sometimes not nice people to live with, they can be cruel and selfish and yes, even knowing that they are ill, sometimes you despise them.

I really feel for his daughter who has lost a brother and effectively her father and his mother who has obviously been through enough already.

Just read the report for the first time.

Unimaginably tragic and sad.

However, I do believe that one does not have to be long term mentally ill in order to experience an out of control, crazed outburst over which one has very little self control or even awareness. To my mind this would then become an act borne out of an altered state of consciousness but not quite the same as insanity. Rather, not the same as an act that would attract a lesser sentence due to a plea of insanity.

wannabe, I would agree that probably far too many people trot out the 'unstable' bit to get themselves found not guilty of apalling crimes, but given that both his brothers committed suicide, it must be at least more likely that he was unstable than in other cases?

so why do we feel sorry for him and not for peter sutcliff/ian brady?

There are a lot of mentally ill people out there that have committed unspeakable crimes, and yet never do we speak of those as being tradgic/worthy of sympathy.

I think I feel sorry for him because he is obviously distressed and as a "nice" person I dont like to see that - it doesnt make what he did any less repellant. I would generally go hmmm at the instability plea but taking into account his family history it is possible/likely to be true.

I can't see what worthwhile difference it makes to anyone whether any given individual feels 'sympathy' or not. Sympathy neither undoes the act nor prevents future such acts does it? Similarly 'forgiveness' and 'feeling sorry for', what's the point?

Awareness of forms of mental distress and early access to treatments is much much more important, his family sounds like mine - riddled with serious psychiatric illnesses. My sister, for example, seriously injured her newborn child while suffering from puerperal psychosis, and has still to regain any sort of insight into her actions/condition nearly 20 years later. She wasn't charged with anything and lives in supported accommodation, my parents adopted my niece after it became apparent that little or no meaningful recovery would be made.

As for extended suicide stats, there's a mention here (scroll down a bit) I have a feeling that it is in cases involving children that women are more likely to be the perpetrators - if I read this somewhere it was probably in 'night falls fast' by kay redfield jamison

also don't know the situation in Crete but whoever made the comment about 'insanity' plea being too easy to roll out probably doesn't realise just how many mentally ill people opt to be convicted of crimes and have a fixed sentence rather than be held indefinitely in a secure hospital

Awful tragic situation. For all involved, not just the mother. I have never seen a man looked so devastated.
I would put money on him being mentally unbalanced when this awful accident occured.

i remember hearing of a young asian woman jumping in front of a train with her two children.. but it was barely mentioned in the papers.

I do feel the same empathy for others who have committed crimes due to mental ill health Wannabe. Doesn't everyone else??

12 years ago a woman in Suffolk got a TAXI to a notorious suicide spot (2nd only to Beachy Head some years) and threw her son over. I often wonder about the taxi driver, did he think she just wanted to admire the view? It's a busy dual carriageway, not a local beauty spot.