I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

It is a truly tragic story. It seems even his ex-wife thinks the worst sentence will be the one he is serving in his head.

I don't think what he did was premeditated - it sounds like an act of pure desperation to me. Impossible for any of us to understand his feelings though. I doubt even he does.

I agree that his wife is not to blame for this extreme reaction to their marriage failing but nobody exists in a bubble. His wife was there and her part in this had a bearing on what happened so the defence lawyer has to ask questions about the triggers for his actions. But I say again, that doesn't make her to blame.

Is there any suggestion, that apart from the crimes on which he stands accused, that he had ever been violent towards his wife before?

have nothing nice to say so ill leave it at that poor little gorgeous boy very sad and tragic his poor mum

heartbreaking.
It's really sick to see them trying to held her somewhat responsible for pushing him to the edge.
If (and have little doubt here) he is indeed ill then the poor bastard does not know what hit him in those fatal few minutes.

Also have very dear friends with wife severely bipolar. They chose not to have kids. She leads a perfectly normal life and then suddenly she completely looses it for weeks on end. About every 2 years. Although we are prepared, it's always devastating to watch and she needs 24/7 monitoring for that period.

someone on this thread asks about John Hogan's parents. It says here that his mother has sold her house in Bristol and has moved to Greece to be close to her son.

I agree with madamez's posts. It's an utterly dreadful story, and I'm a little bit at all the press comments about the fact that his wife was leaving him, as though that is some kind of mitigation for what he did.

From sort of reading between the lines in the media reports I think the marriage was on the verge of breaking up. Maybe the holiday was an attempt to improve things but maybe things had gotten really bad before the holiday and although she denies it, he apparently thought she was having an affair.

However lots of marriages break up and lots of people have affairs - not everyone decides to jump of a balcony and take their children. He seems to have thrown the boy off first and then jumped with the girl in his arms - that is what saved her. He can't have been sane at the time to do that.

So so sad for all concerned.

There was a really sad case in Ireland last year too. A mother (who was herself a psychiatrist) killed her 16 year old daughter. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Shockingly sad - she drowned the daughter in the bath - the poor girl must have had a horrible death.

littlebella - the defence lawyers are doing their job, that's all.
maybe she did provoke him, and while that does not make her responsible in any way for the death of her child, it is relevant to his defence to understand the reasons why he did what he did.

I do appreciate that it is a defense lawyer's job to defend the client, which often means looking for or trying to suggest reasons for the client's action, but something which has long made me uneasy is this deep-rooted idea some people have that it's OK to use violence to control or punish another person's sexual behaviour. OK so only a tiny number go as far as John Hogan did (if indeed this was the reasoning behind his action) - or that other man who poisoned and suffocated his daugher because his wife had begun a new relationship: a particularly vile case because the behaviour was so premeditated. But every time you cheer on a person who has 'punished' a former or current partner for having sex elsewhere by destroying their property, for instance, or hitting them, or hitting the other participant in the sex act, or phoning up someone's place of work to involve employers and co-workers in the ending of a relationship, you are contributing to this mindset that thinks rejection of monogamous relationships is a justification of violence.

I also read that the mum is making sure her daughter still sees her paternal grandparents, she has not severed contact with John Hogan's mother and father

hear hear madamez
It sounds as though Natasha Hogan was in a very unhappy marriage for some time before that final holiday in Crete
I think if she had posted about her difficulties on here back then many Mners would have supported her in seeking a way out of the marriage and finding the personal happiness and peace we all deserve

I don't think he did it deliberaely to hurt anyone- from what i've read (and they were a local family so a lot of coverage) it seemed to be a more spotaneous thing- a total collapse really. he was facing the rbeakdown of his marriage and maybe just got pushed too far?

Sounds mroe like a complete tragedy than anything else, esp. with the famillial history.

I know Mum is a Nurse in newport, I hope she is happy with someone else- she deserves something!

Desperately sad situation.

(do agree with madamez on her post)

The death cannot be excused under any circumstances- there is no OK in all of this. But what does exist is a level at which the human brain just implodes. Its well known my Dh tried to kill himself a few years back whilsts everely depressed; thank goodness he was alone, how much would the children's presence in the car have even registered I wonder? It wasn't a long episode- but the fact the car stalled is all that has caused my luck in having him here. That 'moment' is brief but the consequences can be so tragic.

I think John Hogan's mother must be an incredible woman. She has lost two sons to suicide, and her grandson, and now her remaining son is on trial for murder of her grandson. And still, at the age of 65, she has the strength to sell up, move to Greece and support her son at a time when he desperately needs someone to support him.

oh absolutely belgo. What that woman has been through doesnt bear thinking about.

Oh there had to be one.

Kerrymum - he has according to news reports attempted suicide several times, so what you are suggesting may put him out of his misery.

is that shocked face at me fio?

agree with Madamez. The fact that male sexual jealousy is still seen as some kind of justification for terrible violence against women and children is appalling.

And just because people find it hard to believe what he did doesn't make him mad or in any way absolve him of blame. It's insulting to people coping with severe mental illness to suggest that all evil actions must be due to insanity.

It just seems so tragic, regardless of what the outcome of the trial is, it seemed plain to me that JH is already serving a life sentence far more harsh than any other people could impose.

I do feel so sorry for all involved, what a hideous thing to have to live with

He says that he never "planned to kill" his children.

DO we take that as it was a spur of the moment act of madness?
That he didn't think the children would die - merely be injured?
His wife says that she booked the holiday in an attempt to bring the family together.

Who knows what went on?

What he did is unforgiveable - and I suspect he forgives himself least of all. I do not condone what he did. I can't even begin to understand it.
It is a terrible tragedy

exactly bratnav. If there's one thing worse then losing your child, it must be knowing that you killed your own child.