I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

It's clearly not a black and white case at all is it... lots of shades of grey. Why would a mother goad and taunt her husband and flaunt an affair in the presence of their two very young children... what had gone on during the day leading up to this... what pressures were they under at home.... just so many things we don't know.
It is, of course, a total tragedy for everyone involved.

I see why it is tempting to describe someone as 'mad' when they do something that makes no sense at all. But sane people do terrible things all the time. It's doing a disservice to those who do suffer from severe mental illness to claim that all perpetrators of evil acts must be insane.

Vengeance, hate, malice, envy, pride etc. etc. are powerful motivating factors.

Oh I dont disagree madamez.

It's became somewhat heated in this house when the news was on earlier......DH then left the room. Said he found the whole thing too upsetting. I think he is struggling to comprehend how a father can hurt his child. That there must be some kind of logic or excuse. He is actually a very sensitive soul really.

Who says the mother 'goad(ed) and taunt(ed) her husband and flaunt(ed) an affair in the presence of their two very young children'?

And why are you attempting to blame her for this man murdering her son? And trying to murder her daughter?

Who are you talking to edam?

I think on one level you are right Edam, certainly it is more logical to believe as you do. However, I can't stop my less logical side from screaming out, 'How can any sane person deliberately kill their own child?'

Sometimes, I let Pollyanna out of the bag for an hour or two

Sometimes, thinking the best of our fellow man, in torturous circumstances, trying to understand rather than condemn, doesn;t seem a bad thing to do.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up for me soapbox.

'Who says the mother 'goad(ed) and taunt(ed) her husband and flaunt(ed) an affair in the presence of their two very young children'?

And why are you attempting to blame her for this man murdering her son? And trying to murder her daughter? '

If you are addressing this to me, then the answer to the first part is simply the news reports which is all the information any of us have to base a judgement on. The news reports may be highly misleading/innaccurate (I have very little faith in the media!) but as that's all we have to go on, we're all basing our opinions on them.

In answer to the second part, I am certainly not attmempting to blame the mother for the father 'murdering' (i use quotes as he hasn't been convicted) the son. I am pointing out that it is clearly a complex situation. The impression I get is of a very unhappy family under huge stress for whatever reasons, affairs or whatever.

semantics Pan - he has admitted to killing his son.

I will never understand how people when finding out their partner has been unfaithful can go on to try and kill themselves and take the children with them.

Obviously trying to get back at their partner for being unfaithful but how can they use the children to do this ,there are other ways.

Probably are more cases relating to men in this situation re male pride and all that.

not sematics Kew, just correct. That's all.

pan: "ONe never hears of a woman jumping out of window/taking children with them.......do we?"

Unfortunately, one does. Off the Humber Bridge for example, or in front of a train, or off a hotel balcony or into Francisco bay.

I think it's a huge assumption to say it's 'obviously' about trying to get back at their partner. That may be true, but it could equally well be true that the father couldnt bear the thought of having his children taken away from him. The stats prove that in most family breakups, young children live with their mother as the primary carer. I know the stats for the number of fathers who are not even in contact with their children a few years after a break up are shocking too. My gut feeling is that if I were the husband, I would be more distressed about the prospect of losing my children than the affair. And the background to all this is that there appears to be a serious history of mental health issues in the father's family.

I know Uber....tis been pointed out, already.

But thank you for ramming the point home.

However on a more positive note, posterior position only affects 6% of deliveries, so hopefully you will find the whole thing fine

Shit, wrong thread

I'll get me coat

I keep thinking how dreadful for the father's parents too. Imagine as a mother, having two sons who have committed suicide and another on trial for murder. It's actually beyond imaginable.

alfiesbabe-what you say could well be true and maybe I was making a huge asssumption.

But still feel although he may not have been able to bear the thought of his children being taking away from him it does not justify what he did.

Oh god no - I don't think anyone on here would dream of saying it's justified. Of course it isnt. Just a truly horrible event that will affect so many people for the rest of their lives.

I think the point is that 1000 fathers could experience the same situation that John Hogan did and would not react by throwing himself and his children off a balcony however, given a quirk of mental stability, a reaction disproportionate to the situation can occur and often, particularily in men this can be a violent reaction.

On a personal level, I find it extremely hard to look at that man's face as it is so extraordinarily expressive of sheer and utter devastation.

I sympathise with the children's Mother and cannot begin to imagine how enormous her loss may be. But I cannot accept that John Hogan, when sane, will feel anything less. In fact because it was his actions that caused this situation, I think his life will be a kind of living hell.

I believe that this man was not sane when he committed this deed and therefore should not be found guilty.

it sounds awful, but my ex h had depression and bipolar disorder running through his family like a blue streak - on both sides.

they both had it, too.

and he and his brother elected never to have biological children of their own.

i also went out with a neurosurgeon who felt the same way about his heritage - he'd also inherited severe bipolar disorder and there was a lot of suicide and drug use in his family.

he chose to have a vasectomy.

the ex summed it up, 'i wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, much less my own child.'

Gosh expat, that is extraordinary. I find it so honourable that these men would feel so strongly to choose not to have children themselves feeling as they did. In the extreme, it is a shockingly destructive and debilitating disease and my greatest sympathy goes to those who have it and those who love those who have it.

I agree with Madamez on this one. It's very significant imo, that the defence lawyer today tried to suggest that his ex-wife had provoked him.

I find it incredible in this day and age, that a woman can still be held responsible for the fact that a man has murdered his children. I know it's the legal system in Greece and all, but still... I think adults should be held accountable for their own behaviour. I don't think any other adults shoudl be held responsible. And it is extremely depressing that the defence and media are inching towards trying to put the mother of the children on trial, along with the man who is actually responsible for killing them. Unbelievable.

she isn't actually being held responsible - HE is on trial, and it is the job of the defence to 'defend' him.