I'd like to discuss the John Hogan case, but I dont want it to descend into a 'lynch' thread

[VVVQV]

It aint gonna happen, is it?

How odd. I guess we tend not to imagine or expect the unthinkable though do we?

My mother's best friend from school murdered her two children (bit sketchy on details, it might've been one child only) whilst suffering wih post natal illness. I've met her since her recovery and she was a lovely, lovely lady.

From what I could see, Vacua's link is talking about one particular form of child killing, not saying women are more likely to kill their children. It seems to be about "the phenomenon of murder of a family member(s) by a suicidal person when murder is viewed as a way to protect the family member(s) from a life of suffering".

Hogan wasn't trying to save his children from a life of suffering. He was lashing out because his wife was leaving him.

The article here says 95 per cent of parents who kill themselves and their children are men.

Women's Aid says men are much more likely to kill their children than women are:

"Between 1995 and 1999 in England and Wales, 90 per cent of the known or suspected killers of children aged 10-16 were male, dropping to 62 per cent for children aged below five years, and 56 per cent for infants of less than one year (23)."

here

I'm very surprised by Vacua's stats. Edam's make more sense to me on an instictive basis, not least because men kill far more than women do generally and because they are far more likely to commit suicide than women.

But there seem to be two opposing sets of stats here.

I'm imagining pnd ppp is influencing the stats. If you remove such incidences then clearly men are more 'murderous' than women whether we are talking about of adults or of infants, yes?

perhaps there is a subtle distinction between 'extended suicide' and 'murder-suicide', I can't really back up what I said about extended suicide being largely the preserve of women, perhaps it is a bit like infanticide, a post-natal phenomenon?

As I said, Vacua's link is talking about one particular form of suicide+child killing where the motivation is 'to save children from suffering'. It does not say mothers are more likely to kill than fathers. And it does not present any evidence that women are more likely to commit suicide and kill their children.

dividedselfridgesxmaswindow I don't think many people feel empathy for the likes of Ian Brady no. Because as humans, the idea of harming someone in such a horrible way is just unimagineable, and most just feel utter contempt for someone who can do that to someone else, especially a child.

iirc the Asian woman who threw herself in front of the train with her two children had escaped from a violent arranged marriage. And her mother killed herself in the same spot some months later .

women are many times more likely than men to be diagnosed with a depressive illness, and to make multiple suicide attempts

but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by male suicides, and men as we know are much much more likely to kill other people, they choose more violent methods on the whole

so I'd expect edam to be right about this, and this article supports that

so I think whatever I read about 'extended suicide' being largely a female preserve must be confined to a very small set of circumstances, perhaps with children under 6 months old or something?

I remember reading that, Wannabe. Terrible.

As another reference point, a 1999 US Department of Justice study found that of the nearly 11,000 filicides (including murder-suicides) between 1976-1997, mothers committed about half and fathers committed about half. However, mothers murdered a greater proportion of infants whilst fathers murder a greater proportion of children aged 8 and over.

Another study by the QPR Institute supported this (citing other sources) but also noted that more men (40-50%) were likely to kill themselves having killed their child than women (16-29%).

Jesus, what a bloody depressing set of statistics!

No, not really, KKM. Of course you should be true to yourself. However, I was after constructive comments, hence the thread title. I'm sorry that you are unable to follow that.

Edam - your stats seem to confirm what I was suspecting. I was quite surprised with vacua's statement but willing to accept on provision of stats, because let's face it, anything is possible.

OH god I remember the one where the GP killed his children on his first contact visit without supervision.

Message withdrawn

Yes, that's true dittany. He is pleading not guilty.

Does anyone know the law on suicide in Greece? He's pleading not guilty to that too isnt he?

Kerry unless you have personal knowledge of Hogans mental state I doubt very much you can say with any conviction that

" He was trying to get at the mum"

Yes he did an incredibly evil thing but it was in a totally unbalanced state of mind reading all of the accounts by his ex-wife. SHE said no-one will punish him as much as he will punish himself for the rest of his life.

It is a tragic waste of several lives not just those who died as most of the family will never be the same again.

Surely if he so bitterly regretted doing what he'd done no punishment would be enough in his mind and he would admit to everything.

I think the fact he is pleading not guilty indicates that he does not feel he was responsible.

Really KKM? On what basis do you think he should be charged with pre-meditated murder and that he is evil rather than pyschologically disturbed?

The children's mother actually said, amongst other things:

• "He didn't mean to kill my children"
• "I think his family history contributed to his problems"
• "His sentence is inside his own head and I know until that man dies he will hate himself for what he's done"

The professor of psychiatry appointed by the court said, amongst other things:

• "He was away from reality. He did not know what he was doing"
• "It was not his intention to harm the children. He thought he would be able to take his children to heaven"
• "His body did this, not his brain - he wasn't himself that night"
• He suffered from heavy delusions and schitzophrenic symptoms under pressure

Since his arrest he had tried to kill himself several times and is being treated for clinical depression.

Does this not make you wonder whether there is a tiny possibility that he might have been suffering a fairly significant mental impairment at the time and that it's slightly more nuanced than "yeah, he's evil"

Dittany: I imagine the reason he's not pleading guilty is very simply because he's not guilty of what he's being charged with, i.e. pre-meditated murder. I guess he could plead guilty just as point of public remorse, but I'd have thought the multiple suicide attempts subsequently speak more eloquently of how much remorse he feels than anything else.

Message withdrawn

or maybe the multiple suecide attempts speak of the fact he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life in a greek jail?

some notorious murderers have committed suecide, fred west, Harold Shipman, Ian huntley has attempted on a number of occasions. Should we presume that they have done this out of a sense of remorse? or that they are cowards and cannot face up to what they have done.