Page 10 | Archie Battersbee thread 5

Maerchentante · 04/08/2022 14:07

My BIL was in the position a few years ago, where there was a real possibility that he might have to make the decision on whether my sister received further treatment or not.
In the end, she woke up from the induced coma she was in without any lasting damage, which was a miracle. But my BIL and I agonised over what was the right thing to do and what my sister would want. We both agreed that if it came to the worst, he would ask for treatment to stop.
She has since re-iterated that this is what she would want to happen should she ever be in a situation where this decision has to be made for her.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 04/08/2022 14:08

The poor boy. I understand his mother wanting him somewhere else but the risk is too great that he would die without his family during transfer. Maybe if the hospice staff talk over that side with her it might help but I do wonder if that would do more harm and just cause distrust in hospices

Puzzledandpissedoff · 04/08/2022 14:09

There is no need to report an 88 year old dying of a heart attack as if it was abnormal

There's no need to describe such things as "a tragedy" either
Without doubt they can be a huge sadness for loved ones, but a tragedy, no - and yet that's the way the media are driving the narrative

Quia · 04/08/2022 14:11

Puzzledandpissedoff · 04/08/2022 13:51

The hearing is at 3.30 this afternoon

Good grief, they're getting quicker

Not that it will make any difference, if Quia was correct that CLC even mentioning another application is enough for legal issues to be considered outstanding ... all they have to do is call Barts to talk about their intended next step and once again nothing will be done to release poor Archie

To be clear, I wasn't saying the existence of an outstanding legal issue is in itself enough to bring everything to a halt. That was a point I made in response to a post saying the hospital was wrong in stating that there were outstanding legal issues.

Butchyrestingface · 04/08/2022 14:12

I don't fully understand the mother's objections to the removal of ventilation. According to her, her son is still alive. So if ventilation is removed, then - on her lights - he would start to breathe spontaneously?

Alternatively, he's brain dead and when ventilation ceases, he will not breathe and his heart will stop.

Or have I missed something?

SmellyToilet · 04/08/2022 14:13

Fadeout83 · 04/08/2022 13:52

Of course they’re done scans. They’re not bloody guessing!

Show quote history

Oh get off your high horse. Of course they’re not guessing 🙄 I never suggested they were.

thanks to those who answered my question sensibly

Quia · 04/08/2022 14:14

Idontevenknow · 04/08/2022 13:54

Does anyone know anything about the UN appeal? Will they still look at the case even though the UK courts ruled not to postpone treatment while they assessed it? I don't remember seeing their judgement

I was thinking about that. I guess that will proceed if they decide to admit the case for consideration, but it seems likely it would go the same way as the EHCR.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 04/08/2022 14:14

maudisgonne · 04/08/2022 14:01

There was some discussion, on Sky News earlier, about Alfie Evans parents trying to resuscitate him with mouth to mouth after his oxygen was removed.
Hollie seemed to be saying she would do that.

How would that work if he isn't alive? Alfie was different wasn't it?

Quia · 04/08/2022 14:16

Butchyrestingface · 04/08/2022 14:12

I don't fully understand the mother's objections to the removal of ventilation. According to her, her son is still alive. So if ventilation is removed, then - on her lights - he would start to breathe spontaneously?

Alternatively, he's brain dead and when ventilation ceases, he will not breathe and his heart will stop.

Or have I missed something?

Others will certainly know more than me, I think to be fair that even if someone is able to breathe without ventilation, it's not as straightforward as whipping the tube out and telling them to crack on. It may require a careful weaning process, especially if the patient has been on ventilation for some time.

19Bears · 04/08/2022 14:18

It might not be right for me to comment as I've intentionally stayed away from the news about Archie and don't know the background behind the headlines, but have read some of this thread. I'm not even sure why it's in the news as it feels like a very private family tragedy that I know I would not want to be made public if it was me. I think I can say for sure that Archie would not want this to be all over the news, the poor boy, it's so awful. The fact is, life is a biological state that ends with death. It's not sacred or God-given. It starts and it ends. Of course you try to preserve life when medically possible, and if ethically right to do so, but in this case, there is no life to preserve. As a society we seem more inclined to go with the religious/cultural view that life should be clung onto at all costs and that nobody has the right to end life by choice, rather than to face facts that death will come to all of us and that it's normal. I gather than Archie's mother is fighting the medical team and their decisions, but we all know that medical professionals make the right decisions for their patients and do not willingly make things worse for them or neglect them so they can clear a bed for the next patient. And I say that as someone whose brother has been severely adversely affected by mistakes made by medical professionals on more than one occasion. I'm not someone who blindly champions the NHS as the saviours of the world. They do make mistakes. But in this case, the poor boy is dead, and that cannot be reversed. I think his mother has been sadly caught in a spiral of wanting to be seen to be doing everything possible to save her son, and has lost sight of what she has to accept is best for him and to let him go.

CloudyCookies · 04/08/2022 14:18

This case is so sad. It reminds me of the Gard case. The poor boy has been on life support for 4 months and he hasn’t gotten any better. He is brain dead, he can’t breathe on his own and he is being kept alive by machines. He will never recover, and the mother doesn’t appear to understand that, and I feel like she thinks there is a teeny tiny chance of hope or of a “miracle”. That is most certainly very unlikely in Archie’s case. Keeping him on a ventilator isn’t in his best interests, and i wonder if it might be that she’s doing this last minute request to be able to have some control? I feel like the time has come and Hollie needs to accept it, as hard as it is and let him go. I know a hospice would be ideal for his family, but it has already been stated that a hospice isn’t possible, and he would most likely pass away on the way. There are many children with a chance of survival who need a bed in hospital.

Idontevenknow · 04/08/2022 14:21

Quia · 04/08/2022 14:14

I was thinking about that. I guess that will proceed if they decide to admit the case for consideration, but it seems likely it would go the same way as the EHCR.

Show quote history

I agree that it would go the same way. Just interested in hearing their judgement and also wondering the timeline, as they seem slow to respond compared to the ECHR.

katenutzs · 04/08/2022 14:21

tiredwardsister · 04/08/2022 12:23

Im a paediatric ward sister and have been following the case and reading all the threads on it. This idea ITU (PICU is children's ITU) is an impersonal place to die is insulting to all those staff who look after the patients and patients who die there everyday. Most relatives think the staff in ITU are amazing and I think it was clealry demostrated during the heoght of covid how caring and dedicated the staff are. Secondly moving a child that is that sick (which will be done with either his current medical team or a specialised paediatric transfer service is very risky and I suspect the mother wont be allowed to accompany him (ours aren't) in the ambulance and he may die in the ambulance. Thirdly caring for a child as sick as Archie is exceedingly complicated and requires extensive training, hospice staff are highly unlikely to have that level of training and anyway once the ventilator is removed he will die very quickly because he is not able to breath for himself so again PICU is the best place to do this where the staff who know whats going to happen can support the family.
Lastly I am exasperated by this case we transfer out children to PICU on a regular basis and most times there are no beds in our region and sometimes no beds in the UK children are being held in adult ITU's which is totally inappropriate whilst a bed is found somewhere, we are based n the south and our children do go as far as Glasgow, parents look stunned when we say the you child is being airlifted to Glasgow/Manchester/Liverpool PICU because it's the bed left . We also have a significant group of patients awaiting surgery who cant get it done because of a shortage of PICU beds. I'm obviously not blaming Archies family for this but I do think they have reached the end of the road with this and that someone needs to stop them delaying his tragic death any longer.

Thank you for your professional views and easy to read and understand post, Hopefully it will help people to understand why the hospital would prefer to look after Archie to the end

CloudyCookies · 04/08/2022 14:22

It isn’t very clear what happened, but if it is suicide, I’m pretty sure Archie wouldn’t want this to be all over the news. The mother has changed the story multiple times. In my opinion, I don’t think it was an “online challenge” because he wasn’t filming.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 04/08/2022 14:24

I wasn't saying the existence of an outstanding legal issue is in itself enough to bring everything to a halt

Sincere apologies then, Quia, if I misunderstood you; as said I have no legal expertise and I'm genuinely seeking for clarity here

So putting it as well as I can, is notification that further applications will be made in future enough in law to prevent Barts acting on an existing court judgement or not?
If it is then at least that's clear - but if it isn't I'm back with wondering why they couldn't have withdrawn support in the gap beetween one application failing and the next being made

And yes, I'm well aware of the issues around "be kind" and mum's reaction, but the reaction's clearly becoming something we can't discuss and I'm not at all sure that any of this now constitutes kindness to anyone - least of all Archie

Quia · 04/08/2022 14:25

I fully understand why Ms Dance would prefer to move Archie out of the hospital. When my mother was in hospital long term, I had this increasing sense of dread every time I walked in - the staff were great, it just felt a very stressful and depressing environment. I would assume, too, that it is indeed noisy in PICU; even with the door closed, there will be the noise of other children's machines beeping, alarms going off, staff and visitors asking etc.

But the major hurdle is actually achieving the move, which looks near-impossible, and the family must be expecting the hospital to jump all sorts of hurdles to make it happen - because, realistically, there is zero chance of finding an appropriately equipped private ambulance staffed by private medical staff with the right level of training and expertise.

The ideal would be to find some sort of compromise, and I strongly suspect that is what the hospital is trying to do - e.g. a bed in a quieter single room within the hospital, if such a thing exists. The court will also be leaning on all concerned for that purpose. I really hope they achieve it.

itsgettingweird · 04/08/2022 14:30

Head and heart excellent post.

It was my paragraph initially in bold. It's something that worried me greatly. That people seem to think defying death is just decades away.

People often laugh when I say "I'm sure the dinosaurs thought they'd roam the planet forever".

I say it light heartedly but the point I make is serious.

And so true what you say. As well as mum passing from cancer my dad also had cancer at the same time. Prostate. He's in his 70's. Not unusual. Treated and has hormones etc now. He's won't likely die from it but will maybe sue with it.

FarFarFarAndAway · 04/08/2022 14:31

In the hospital I was in most recently, patients who are dying are put in side-rooms for privacy reasons, if they are available, and no hospice bed is available or appropriate. I would definitely think this could be arranged, if he could be moved at all which is unclear.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 04/08/2022 14:31

Whatever they do the hospital can't win..say no to hospice and they're the bad guys which already seen as. He does go and something happens on the way then no doubt still seen as bad despite the warnings being there. Its sad for the staff who have dome everything they can. Especially the nurses who are said to be upset by how much he has changed..and yet he is seen as healthy and fine

FarFarFarAndAway · 04/08/2022 14:32

@tiredwardsister I agree, the ICU staff I've encountered were the best. No consolation for these staff though, it must be incredibly stressful. Thanks for your thoughtful post.

HappyHamsters · 04/08/2022 14:33

Quia · 04/08/2022 14:25

I fully understand why Ms Dance would prefer to move Archie out of the hospital. When my mother was in hospital long term, I had this increasing sense of dread every time I walked in - the staff were great, it just felt a very stressful and depressing environment. I would assume, too, that it is indeed noisy in PICU; even with the door closed, there will be the noise of other children's machines beeping, alarms going off, staff and visitors asking etc.

But the major hurdle is actually achieving the move, which looks near-impossible, and the family must be expecting the hospital to jump all sorts of hurdles to make it happen - because, realistically, there is zero chance of finding an appropriately equipped private ambulance staffed by private medical staff with the right level of training and expertise.

The ideal would be to find some sort of compromise, and I strongly suspect that is what the hospital is trying to do - e.g. a bed in a quieter single room within the hospital, if such a thing exists. The court will also be leaning on all concerned for that purpose. I really hope they achieve it.

In my very limited experience of working in adult icu its a much more peaceful and quiet environment than any acute ward I ever worked on , the lights were always dimmed, alarm didnt go off as there is 1.1 or 1.2 nursing, there was never any panic and plenty of quiet areas for staff and families to talk.

Fladdermus · 04/08/2022 14:35

By this point he had no peripheral nerve response and therefore couldn't have the tests carried out under policy and guidelines.

Would you mind explaining what this means a bit further?

HappyHamsters · 04/08/2022 14:36

FarFarFarAndAway · 04/08/2022 14:31

In the hospital I was in most recently, patients who are dying are put in side-rooms for privacy reasons, if they are available, and no hospice bed is available or appropriate. I would definitely think this could be arranged, if he could be moved at all which is unclear.

He is already in a side room but maybe if she doesnt want him to die there they could compromise and move him to a sideroom on the childrens ward if it was safe, available and in his best interests but moving him for the sake of it would not be right.

MaggieFS · 04/08/2022 14:37

I think it's unfortunate that what has been a very informative series of threads on legal and medical issues over the last few weeks has suddenly got very emotional and argumentative in a way which isn't constructive debate.

I thank all of the knowledgable posters who are continuing to answer questions.

I expect I will get accused of being distasteful with my next question by some of the newcomers but I will ask it anyway.

When it's is said there are risks to his stability, is this a fluids and ventilation stability or are there also risks to his physical stability, for what of a better phrase?

Reallyreallyborednow · 04/08/2022 14:42

When it's is said there are risks to his stability, is this a fluids and ventilation stability or are there also risks to his physical stability, for what of a better phrase?

it means if he’s moved his heart will likely give up.

his brain is no longer working to keep his blood pressure stable and his heart going- it can’t instruct his heart to beat faster, his veins and arteries to relax or constrict to keep blood flow stable. Even rolling him will send his blood pressure crazy- hollie has referred to this as him “not liking” being on one side. Simply his body cannot cope with movement as his brain can’t compensate. His heart cannot cope with the changes in blood pressure, so if his bp goes, so will his heart.