No improvement in social mobility since the '70's and bright kids form a poor background are underachieving

[manchita]

Isn't it great living in a classless society?

God it makes me so angry.

I would like to think grammar school were the answer, and they certainly used to help with social mobility, but the ones that still exist at the moment are certainly not fulfilling that role.

Selection by house price hasn't helped either.

I agree Katy. House prices are to blame for keeping people stuck in an area with bad schools. I do believe grammar schools made a difference in giving working class kids more opportunities. I also believe it is down to self confidence and self belief.

not really news is it? hardly surprising

Let's face it, it comes down to affluent parents with less intelligent children having the monetry resources for extra tuition, private schools, spacious homes and many other factors.
It is just so unfair that all this talent is going to waste and we are letting all these bright children down by not giving them a fair chance.

Doesn't surprise me. Where's the news from?

How much did Grammar schools help the poorest kids though? Dad (second youngest of 16 kids, dad an alcoholic, mum disabled and bedridden) was offered a place at grammar but they couldn't afford the uniform so he couldn't go. He says he wasn't unusual in that amongst his friends.

Mum did get to go (also rasied- like me- in a council house) but never used her qualifications after having children.

I do beilive goods chools instill a sense of self belief- my Ex and my sister's Dh were at a good private together and neither are what you'd call bright (3 attempths for BIL to pass his degree with a third) but both have great careers and are confident socialy- in the ex's case despite a stunning level of actual ineptness. My kidsa re lucky to attend a remarkable state school which seems to consider itself private and I can see a similar level of confidence in them, however there are issues there- the school does what it can to avoid accepting SN kids or poorer parents (the Head will readily admit) including a refusal to sign up to any form of wrapa round care or breakfast club as she doesn't want those working parents at her school (she retires on the 20th- phew!) and so all the kids from the estates get pushed into a small school together (actually a lovely one) at the top of the hill, and therefore neither group mixes. Huge shame imo (we did look into transfering the boys there but distance too big for us and complicated by statements etc)

WWW don't know where else it is but is in the Times today

It's only surprising and newsworthy because many people claim we all hae a fair chance thses days.
I think another point was that there were many more people educated in the fities who went on to greater achievements than there are now

Dinosaur, I think it does help. If everyone sent their children to the local school I like to think it would make a diiference

Agree with Kathy. I'm a grammar school boy and I'd like to think they played their part. Bit sad if they haven't. But then the selection by mortgage thing just shows what a joke the "comprehensive" system is.

WickedWitch, The report was commissioned by the sutton trust and its findings are backed up by research from the LSE.
They all agree that the UK has extremely low rankings of social mobility internationally so is it the class system in this country in general that keeps people in their place?

I think league tables have really, really polarised schools.
From my experience in higher education, if you take the students from (in HE terms) non-traditional background with lower qualifications you are taking a risk, because you are gambling on talent you believe is there but it may not be and you are likely to have a higher dropout rate. But that's precisely what you should be doing, and you should be free to take risks. Once you start getting obsessed by league tables you end up being less brave, hence the kind of thing Peachy describes.

Re not being able to afford uniform - yes, I know of lots of cases like that; also many where only one child in the family could go (happened in my dad's dad's family). But there were also lots where the poorer children did manage it thanks to additional grants and benevolent funds etc.

Completely agree it's about house prices.
Really takes the edge off the fun in life when you need a good £40K extra to have a) enough space to live in and b) in an area where you aren't going to worry too much about schools.

Somehow there seemed to be a balnce when I was growing up- creative catchments areas I think, each school had a mix of council estates and posh outer villages (in Somerset). I wish the school around here would follow that lead, but it involves a certain amount of interest and planning transport etc.

The saddest thing about selection by mortgage is that there is just not enough impetus to break the hold it has. Those whom the system benefits are content to be complicit in maintaining the status quo. That's some parents, policy/decision-makers in local government, and estate agents.

League tables cannot, now invented, be un-invented. There may be something less rigid as the Lib Dems want. Or they may be scrapped altogether. But "unofficially" everyone will still know which are the "best" (i.e. most middle-class - come on, we all know that's what people mean) schools. People want there to be badly-performing schools, and schools with bad reputations, so that they have bogeymen and know where not to send their kids if they have a "choice". There won't be a sea change - influential parents won't let it happen.

Estate agents would have an absolute fit if there were to be a ballot /random system round here - it would screw up their stupid mark-ups on prices in the "good" areas, over night. So they won't let it happen either.

In the city where I live I find it hard - indeed, impossible - to believe that the movers and shakers have a genuine commitment to making comprehensive education more fair and equal. Because that would mean mixing the intake from the schools where their children go, and where their friends' children go. And you can bet they are the best ones. So they won't let it happen either.

According to the Uni's I have visited and my own, the most likely successful candidates are the mature ones or those with an Access qualification as opposed to straight a-levels (Bath Spa quoted Access as the most likely to obtain a first, for example). That suggests to me that there is a huge pool of missed talent- you don't suddenly get bright at 28, but you can be denied opportunities at school. Uni was never sonsidered an option for me, yet I am doing well now. But it was expecetd i'd leave and go into the factories because that's what people did, right (well no I didnta in the end as I found a different path- but still not HE until much later)

I'm a working class oik with a partly grammar school education. We moved half-way through to an area without them and I went to a comprehensive then (which was crapper than a big pile of steaming horsepoo.)

I'm definitely middle-class now, but that's because I married well, nowt to do with my education. I recall being very proud of being the first person in my family to pass the eleven + and get to go to grammar school and learn latin and stuff. My mum had stories to share at family get togethers for years

OK so what do people think about things like the Assisted Places Scheme, that gave a very few people a very generous leg-up by sending them to private school?
I don't know, but I imagine this would be pretty effective for those few, and probably quite cost-effective in terms of the probability of a successful outcome (compared with pouring more money into sink schools to try to improve them for everyone, but then the money fails to have the effect it should do.)

Is this worth doing (if properly targetted), or is it too unfair on the rest to even consider?

Peachy its always been like that because mature students really want to be there and work hard when they are there.

I went to uni as a mature student as even though I had good A levels (and went to grammar)I had a child when I was young.

Despite spending all my uni years studying with a school aged child I still did far better than my peers in terms of class of degree

Ex's family found if they employed an acoountant aprt time to do their assisted places application, it still worked out cheaper than paying the full amount (which they could have afforded btw, managed to fund three there later on)

Proper targetting is difficult- people learn to play the system. if NMC is around ask her experience with private school bursaries- quite shocking imo!

Peachy