No improvement in social mobility since the '70's and bright kids form a poor background are underachieving

[manchita]

Isn't it great living in a classless society?

Are we still ridden with class prejudice or does it all come down to education?Hmmmm

Katy, I find your comments v interesting. I find the whole topic fascinating myself esp as so many people deny having any class prejudice..What's going on then?
I think maybe people feel free to reinvent themselves in these other countries which is a sad refection on our society

copy of the report here for anyone who wants to read, sorry I didn't see a link for it posted already, apologies if it was

It doesn't all come down to education.

My estate is on the deprivation index 9the one I was raised on), my sisters and I went to the local school of the type one now associates with the sort of inner city schools people move away from (saw my first attempted teacher stabbing at 9). Our education was no better than anyone elses and yetw are all generally perceived as MC.

Why?

partly because Mum always taught us that we were worth more than cutting ribbons in the underwear factory (thank goodness- now closed), partly because each of us learned to drop our west country accent in favour of RP when needed (makes a difference sadly) and well- don't know. But there was clearly something. And each of us has either got an education or returned- I am at Uni, sister starts September (and has been a Nursery manager for years), other ister graduated last year from her vet nurse course.

My contemporaries? Grandmothers now many of them, aged 35. Theitr kids in the main go to the same school we went to, albeit differently names so people drop the bad associations (yeah right). Mine attend a high end state Church school and learn violin etc. The diference isn't anything to do with the education, its what our Mother taught us we were worth. Which in turn came down to what she should have achieved (gramamr school girl) but never did for many reasons.

Peachy I agree - think too much emphasis is put on the school. The school can't do everything the real basis for success or failure is the attitude and support (or not) of the parents.

Part of it is down to the lack of grants for children to go to tertiary education.

I teach any number of bright, able, working class kids who are not thinking about university because they are scared of getting saddled with debt.

When I was their age I have the great good fortune to have a full grant which paid for my time at Uni!

Another basic difference is the large number of very dysfuctional families, cause by social deprivation/ alcohol/ drugs etc. and the knock on effect that this has on their children and the other children in the school.

I grew up in a working class area, but there were very few children from families like this. people were poor, but they did have jobs, drug abuse was almost unheard of. Most, if not all, the parents of the kids in my school wanted their kids to do better; to have more choices than they had been given (parents just like your Mum Peachy)

Now there are children who come from much 'poorer' families. Families where there is no aspiration or hope of a better life. And these children can have real behavioural problems is schools.

The area my dad comes from (South Yorkshire mining village) had its culture destroyed at some point between the 1940s and now - the obvious answer there is the pits closing down. A lot of these mining communities had enormous amounts of stuff going on - operatic societies, night schools, brass bands (!), political & union activities. They were essentially healthy functioning communities, well-paid (compared with other manual jobs).
Replaced by amazing levels of deprivation, people on long-term benefits, drugs & alcohol - as MB says.
Was there a difference in the way other European countries dealt with the end of manufacturing & heavy industry? Or is this something we see replicated across Europe?

I thought many other European countries' economies (like France) were always much more agriculturally based than ours was after the industrial revolution. As such, maybe the decline in manufacturing didn't hit as hard?

Sounds plausible ImBarryScott, esp re France and the Mediterranean countries.
Big industrial swathes of northern Germany, though.

kathy that's whats happening at home right now- y home town was an industrial centre in the middle of a large agriculturala rea and as such became basically a centre for the low earning and unemployed. It still maintains this lovely rep- bridgwater. Now all the factoires are closing and poeple are moving either to services industries (an improvement for most) or just vanishing into the underground. if you were one of the many who assumed that a factory position was for life, you're stuffed now.
When the first of the big factories was closed, my dad had to sack hundreds of men includings evceral of his own brothers and nephews, and then returned to the office to find his cards on the table!. Got another job, same thing again a few years later. From top management level he now works as a cleaner in a sausage factory and has refused promotion repeatedly because he just won't go there agian- retires next year anyhow (minus any pensions as they went with the companies).

I was loucky to have my Mum, but she was severely depressed half my childhood and dad drank a lot, especially through all the closures etc. Fortunately they had the strength and spirit to pull themselves out of a situation many would have been destroyed by and you learn a lot watching that. Neither have mental health issues any more, and they're still happily married- 40 years next year. As an adult I am only just beginning to have full awareness of the personal strength they must have (Dad comes from a long line of drinkers- his Dad, gran, and a few brothers died of Cirrhosis).

Your parents sound amazing Peachy.
My uncle stayed in the area where he grew up when my father got out, and had the same thing - going from job to job because once the industry closes there is a knock-on effect on other businesses because no-one else in the community had any money. At one point he ran a corner shop but again, if everyone around you is broke it is very hard to make that work. His marriage broke down under the pressure, with knock-on effects on my cousin, whose education got messed up - however he went back to education as an adult and now has a degree

I agree the education isn't the only factor. I grew up in a deprived area of London and even as a child felt quite different to my peers in the values I was taught and in my parents' expectations of me.
My friends are mixture of all social classes and nationalities, and when I look at the majority of the people I grew up with I realise that we are completely different in our atitudes to life and level of education.

A friend made an interesting remark whilst discussing this in real life- that we should look up for the answer to the people (largely with priveliged backgrounds) that run the country instead of always looking down to the
underpriveliged to solve things.

Don't understand your friend's remark Manchita - what do you think he was getting at?

good point, Manchita. The wealthy often exhort those worse off than them to pull their socks up and start living by middle class values, with no real understanding of the barriers that exist and that, frankly, all of us who are better off help to sustain

Yes, Edam, I think that's the gist of it.
We are told that the problems the poorest people face such as family abuse/ no books at home/housing and social issues are the things that are preventing their children's academic success but no one in power seems willing/able to change anything.
Although I must say that I believe the setting up of Sure Start was a very positive thing, aiming to reach those under 5's and their families who need support. I just hope that it does meet the needs of the people it is aimed at.

i beliee that we can ( with enough commitment and cash injection) change the pervading culture. I believe that this has happened with sure start and breast feeding - not all there yet but huge cultural shift.

I also believe that all parents no matter what social class should have to attend parenting classes throughout the childs life. We can set the pervading culture. good parenting begets good parenting in a lot of cases i would suggest. A culture which suggests that time with your child is more important than things.

when you have the complete respect of your children, they hope to please you. The power of being a mother or father much forgotten yet so obvious. If we have expectations and hope that our children will get a job or go to uni - and they want to please you as mother or father then i guarentee that is what they will do.

I agreee cUstardo. I think that parenting classes should def be compulsory. The culture of uneracheiving is a generational problem within many families and needs to be addressed. Most of these children can be targeted, but it will take a lot more cooperation between schools/ the police and government programmes plus a lot more funding

I wonder if in the future we will see the benefits of sure start. I hope so

Compulsory parenting classes?

God no, what a horrible idea.
Firstly there is too much of a likelihood that they will be crap, a waste of time and full of whatever theory is trendy this year.
Secondly they will end up undermining the confidence of many good parents, and in parenting, confidence is key.
Thirdly it will be the usual problem that the parents who are really in need of them don't bother to turn up. (And how do you force them? By fining them/cutting benefits? The rich ones won't care and this would put the poorer ones further into poverty and it would be the children who would suffer.)

I learn a lot about parenting from watching other parents but I work out for myself who is worth watching.
Wide availability of free parenting classes, on the other hand, is a nice idea. And there would be more interest for the people running them in making them good if they are not actually compulsory.

linked to benefits or tax system - yes obviously a financial incentive has to be attached.

may i suggest that those who would rather forfeit their benefits than attend a parenting class 4 times a year(for instance) either dont need the benefits or dont give a crap about children or have a strong anti-establishment political ideology stance ( the latter being v. few)

as for the content being wank well not necessarily how can we hypothesise about wankyness of something that is merely an idea?
i dont understand if they are not compulsory why will they be more interesting.

if they are not complulsory only those with low self esteem or realise they are shit parents will go.

the truly shit parents would never go

and the likleyhood is that ths kind of think would be linked to povery - which gives a prevailing cultural norm that poor=parenting classes =shit paretns
but rich people are automatically good parents by virtue of having more money.

I agree with Peachy's post from Thu 13-Dec-07 19:25:53.

Many children of immigrants often do well, despite having to attend what some would deem poor underachieving schools, because of the value attached to education by their parents. Many immigrant parents provide a supportive home background, they value hard work, and they teach their children that they are just as good as anybody else despite being poor and an ethnic minority.

That was certainly the case with my parents from Jamaica and that is why I ended up leaving university with a higher degree.

One of my colleagues is a school governor at a school on a poor housing estate and she says that the locals complain about the new migrant children attending the school but it is those children who are actually pulling up grades because their parents value the education on offer and so the children turn up, are attentive and work diligently. The school can't even persuade most the parents of the indigenous population to attend parents evening let alone participate in the PTA. The parents are very quick to come into school though if a teacher has the temerity to scold their precious off-spring. Consequently, the school has no functioning PTA.

Totally agree with UD comment about Ofsted reports comparing a school in a deprived area with that in a well to do area.

I have recently made my selection for primary schools for my DTS. As well as looking at Ofsted reports, I visited the schools. The school I placed at number one is only satisfactory according to Ofsted. I chose it because we were shown around by the children. They were articulate, motivated, brimming with aplomb and brashless self-assurance. I also visited the best academic school in the area and did not choose it. The parents put me off with their obsession with the 11+. Our children have not started school yet (they are only 3yo) and yet they are obsessing about the 11+ already! The parents are typical of those whose children attend that school so DH and I decided against it.

We both have PhDs and we know that one does not have to turn ones off-spring into a test paper obsessive drone in order to succeed in life. We also know that children should enjoy school and not regard it as a chore to satisfy a parent's ego.